Tape 003. Mrs Dorothy Ireland (nee Goss), sides 5 and 6

Tape 3

Mrs Ireland was born in 1894; these are parts of interviews on 1 December 1976 and 11 February 1977, when she lived at 12 Chalks Road, Witham.

She also appears on tapes 1, 2, 7, 33, 86, 90 and 97.

For more information about her, see the the notes in the people category headed Ireland, Mrs Dorothy (Dolly), nee Goss

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

Note that the early tapes, being the first interviews I ever did, are examples of how not to do it – all my interruptions and mutterings and unclear questions! JG

______________________________________________

Continued from tape 2

Side 5

[The original two minutes of this, continued from side 4, was accidentally deleted by the beginning of the next interview. Following is a summary of what Mrs Ireland said in it:
Some people were so poor they had no shoes. Mrs Ireland herself ‘come in with the tradespeople’. Farmers were moneyed people, the only wealth there was, comparable with professionals. They weren’t snooty. But ‘you couldn’t mix if you hadn’t got the clothes’.
The first two minutes that are now on this side are therefore out of place, and continue the conversation from the end of side 6. But I’ve kept the transcript as it is on the tape.

Q:    Here we are [showing photograph: see picture 1, 48 Church Street]. That’s another one of the shop, look, but that’s a bit [???] with a car, you don’t know who that is, do you?

Dorcas Hasler in Mr Hasler's car outside his shop
Dorcas Hasler in Mr Hasler’s car outside his shop

Mrs I:    Oh, that is an ancient one. That’s the shop, now you’ve got it, haven’t you, and that’s the cottage, yes.

Q:    There we are, yes, I should have remembered that one.

Mrs I:    That’s the cottage.

Q:    And who’s name, that’s Hasler’s, yes of course, that’s Hasler’s on there, isn’t it, yes?

Mrs I:    Well, who on earth would it be, because there wouldn’t be, wouldn’t be many people ….

Q:    With a car, no,

Mrs I:    Oh no, I should think that ….

Q:    They seem quite proud of it, perhaps it’s just a visitor?

Mrs I:    Oh, I should imagine they were in the shop. That’s Hasler.

Q:    Yes, that says Hasler’s, doesn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s Hasler. Oh, I should imagine that, oh, it’s Mr Hasler’s car, of course.

Q:    Is it?

Mrs I:    You see, with his crutches and he had his house built Rickstones Road. Why, of course, ridiculous, that’s Dorcas.

Q:    Is it?

Mrs I:    Dorcas Hasler. Of course. His sister. Ridiculous, of course that’s Freddie’s car. Oh, now you can see that’s nice. But you can’t imagine that, can you, being wood, have wooden blocks, with the grapevine.

Q:    Not really, no, ‘cos it looks quite old, even as it is, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s the cottage [on the left], and that was the store place [on the right].

Q:    And the bakehouse was round this way somewhere was it, where the garage is? [off the pic to the left]

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, [???] that’s through, yes. Oh of course, oh yes.

Q:    So you knew her, so she lived there too, did she?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, they both, they were both there. Hasler, it’s got his name over, the top. And Mrs Richardson that lives in this house, she worked ….

[End of this part that is out of place; this conversation continues on side 7]

[Gap]

[The rest of this side now goes back to 1 December]

Mrs I:    You never say, you don’t condemn people, but ….

Q:    Were you brought up to treat people any different, different sorts of people?

Mrs I:    Oh no, but you just ….

Q:    Or did you have to sort of, I remember you said when the vicar came to school you bowed and scraped?

Mrs I:    Oh, my gracious, yes.

Q:    I mean, did you have to do that for anybody else? Did you feel you’d got to curtsey for anybody else?

Mrs I:    Yes, the governors, yes, yes, Admiral Sir William Luard, we did, he was a governor, yes, and all this [miming touching cap etc.].

Q:    What about outside of school, was there anybody you sort thought you ought to be a bit extra polite to, or anything?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no.

Q:    Or to call ‘sir’ or anything.

Mrs I:    Oh no, the doctors, you know, were very good, there was no side with the doctors, no side with anyone.

Q:    I suppose your grandma was in a position to know people who were different, really, wasn’t she?

Mrs I:    Yes, different people, you see, you knew. But oh, it was, it was a different world altogether.

Q:    And I suppose the teachers, would they, what sort of group would, what sort of people did they mix with, the teachers?

Mrs I:    Well they were just ordinary people, because, look at Jimmy Chalk, he was just in Church Street.

Q:    Quite, yes.

Mrs I:    And Douglas Bowyer. Oh, Douglas Bowyer and Clara Bowyer, they kept the White Horse, you know, in Chipping Hill [2 Church Street].

Q:    Oh, did they really? So I suppose the teachers came from different sorts, mostly middle class families but they were all over ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, but there was no education was there?

Q:    So they mostly taught themselves?

Mrs I:    Yes, taught, definitely.

Q:    So, would there be a special sort of person that went to the Church rather than to the Chapel, of the classes of people, do you think?

Mrs I:    Yes, now that’s a strange question, because you did think ‘Oh, they only go to Chapel’, yes, I do agree with that.

Q:    Really? Yes, I didn’t think of that, but I read that somewhere, and it does seem strange.

Mrs I:    Yes, that is true.

Q:    But it seems to have happened in a lot of places, I think, yes.

Mrs I:    You must be Church.

Q:    Church was the correct thing?

Mrs I:    Oh, the thing.

Q:    And if you were Chapel you were a bit ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, well, you wondered why.

Q:    I see. But the say the Chalks went to Chapel?

Mrs I:    Yes, Congregational. I always remember Jessie Chalk with recitations, you know, Mrs …. [Mrs Bajwa]

Q:    I know, yes.

Mrs I:    They were rather odd. Their grandfather was ‘old miser Chalk’.

Q:    Was he?

Mrs I:    Why did they change this into Chalks Road, why didn’t they keep it Chalks Lane?

Q:    Was that it was called after, Chalk, their grandfather, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes, I expect so. Ridiculous, why did they. They were Faulkbourne people eventually. She lost her mother. They were brought up with grandparents, that’s strange.

Q:    You remember the grandparents, do you?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and the auntie.

Q:    So they lived in Church Street?

Mrs I:    Opposite, no, they lived opposite Crittall’s, yes.

Q:    Braintree Road, I see. In that little house [55 Braintree Road]?

Mrs I:    Yes, they were Dorothy ….

Q:    The one that’s sort of end-ways on?

Mrs I:    Yes the little old place, yes. There was Dorothy, Connie and Jessie, that’s Jessie.

Q:    But you think they were a bit strange?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, very.

Q:    What did the grandfather do for a living?

Mrs I:    He just built. He was, just, you know, rough building, what we used to say rough carpenter, you see. Yes, because you see he had those four cottages [probably 57-63 Chalks Road], and Jessie lived in one when she got older, this one here, and Dorothy, they lived together, and then Dorothy died in child-birth. And Connie, she was good, they were good, they were educated, they educated themselves, because Connie taught at Braintree High School. She’s only recently died. Can’t understand why she came back, unless it was Connie’s mother, you see, because you see the boy’s Cambridge[?]. But I thought how strange, to come back to Witham [perhaps Jessie Bajwa, who returned from East Africa].

Q:    Do you think …. would you say there were many people, I suppose if he was a builder he was almost a tradesman, I mean did tradesmen go to Church mostly or chapel?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    Church?

Mrs I:    And the choir, yes, and sidesmen.

Q:    So the Chalks were a bit odd, really that they went to [Mrs I: Chapel], a bit different that they were going to Chapel, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes, we did, yes.

Q:    Were there any other people like that, that went to chapel that you wouldn’t really expect, wouldn’t have expected to?

Mrs I:    Cutts the fishmonger. Yes, they were Chapel people. I don’t think of other people, no.

Q:    Most of them went to Church then if they were tradesmen?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. And then you kept in your group, you see.

Q:    Outside of the Church?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, you see.

Q:    Your friends and that? So the Cutts and the Chalks and that keep a bit apart anyway, would they?

Mrs I:    Well, that’s all I remember, you know, that way. There was the bellringers, you always did, Church, yes.

Q:    So did the Chalks not have something to do with the bells?

Mrs I:    Bells, ringing, yes, and families before them.

Q:    So even though they were Chapel people they were, or were they different Chalks.

Mrs I:    That was these Chalks, that was generations, about three generations back, because Jimmie Chalk, he came, two years ago, it wasn’t that time. But do you remember Mrs Smith living opposite?

Q:    That’s right, yes, she was a Chalk, wasn’t she?

Mrs I:    She was a Chalk. And she said to me one day, she said ‘Jimmie’s here’, and I said ‘Yes, I know, I’ve spoken to him’. So she said ‘Do you know what he told someone?’. I said ‘No, I’m sure I don’t’. She said ‘He’d got no relatives in Witham’. I said ‘Oh well, Ethel, don’t take any notice’, I said, ‘your father and his father were brothers, but’, I said ‘probably he didn’t think’, I said, ‘leaving Witham all those years’. But I remember she was annoyed about that.

Q:    I see, so their fathers were brothers, so they weren’t the same?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes [note that later Mrs I: implied they were more distant relatives, not brothers].

Q:    There was quite a lot of them then, weren’t there.

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. But old miser, but that was where there grandfathers probably could have been first cousins.

Q:    Yes. What made people call him a miser?

Mrs I:    Well, because he dressed terrible.

Q:    Did he?

Mrs I:    Oh, he was a strange old man. And then auntie, that was the maiden auntie, that’s who brought them up.

Q:    I suppose every place had people who were a bit different?

Mrs I:    Definitely.

Q:    I suppose children tended to notice it more, really, didn’t you, laugh at them, did you?

Mrs I:    Of course you do. Same as I said to you about old Sammy Page, he was strange. ‘My lady’, he’d go.

Q:    So he was very sort of ….?

Mrs I:    Oh very.

Q:    To everybody?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, but he was fun. Oh yes.

Q:    Did he go to Church or Chapel or don’t you remember?

Mrs I:    No, I don’t think he went.

Q:    Probably didn’t go anywhere? I suppose there were quite a lot of people that didn’t go anywhere by then, were there?

Mrs I:    Definitely.

Q:    Yes Interesting, isn’t it. I suppose the poor people, if they went to Church at all, they went to the Chapel, would you say, the poorer people?

Mrs I:    No, I don’t think, oh no, they’d go to Church, because they’d get help, oh, the poorer.

Q:    Oh I see, oh that’s interesting, yes.

Mrs I:    They used to have a little loaf when we came out of Church, the old ladies used to go after service and have a loaf, little cottage loaf.

Q:    I see.

Mrs I:    And the beef at the Vicarage [now Old Vicarage], and the soup kitchens.

Q:    I see, so they’d all keep going to Church, would they.

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes.

Q:    So it was the top and the bottom at the Church and the middle at the Chapel?

Mrs I:    And then of course they had what they called the ‘pence lady’, used to go each Monday, and they had a card and put a penny on, the club card.

Q:    It was a sort of club, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did the Church do that as well, did they?

Mrs I:    The Vicarage, yes, you went, yes, on a Sunday, you took your card.

Q:    And then what did you get for that?

Mrs I:    Well you could spend it on any toy, or they’d have it for their clothes. Because at the Lodge [Witham Lodge, Hatfield Road], they had something for cutting out underclothes, and they used to go, all flannelette.

Q:    I see, so that people used to be able to get the clothes from there?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, you see, you’d go to church because if you didn’t go to Church you wouldn’t get help, would you. That’s what they did it for, to get the people to Church [laugh].

Q:    You talked about the poor people. Would you say there were different sorts of working class people, some perhaps rougher than others, or did you think of them all as the same?

Mrs I:    Well. You knew, didn’t you, by their dress.

Q:    ‘Cos you said you were a bit afraid to go down there [Trafalgar Square and Church Street]?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    Was that because they were rough?

Mrs I:    Well, they used to get drunk on a penny, penny a pint?

Q:    Would you say nearly all poor families, people, would get drunk, or only some, were some quite well behaved as well?

Mrs I:    Oh no, all, we used to watch them.

Q:    Were there many, you wouldn’t say there were any sort of respectable type of poor people, you just [???] all of them?

Mrs I:    Oh no, oh no. I mean if you’re poor it doesn’t matter, how poor you are.

Q:    No, quite, It’s just that I think in some places people reckon that say the craftsmen, who perhaps had a job or something, were still poor, but they tried to keep a bit more respectable.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, you would do that.

Q:    But they were still quite poor?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, it was, yes

Q:    But the people all lived in the same places that you told me about, did they  [Trafalgar Square and Church Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Would anyone ever manage to change, do you think, from one group, to better themselves, much, in those days, or did you think you were more or less set in what you were?

Mrs I:    No, not until Crittalls’ came.

Q:    You tended to stay in the same position that you were in?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh you bettered yourself, you educated yourself, the different things to do.

Q:    Some people managed to better themselves and get on?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Well, like you said, about the teachers and so on, I suppose? Did you see any, do you remember the policemen when you were around, what did you used to think of them when you were little?

Mrs I:    There weren’t many, now that’s a strange question, no, I don’t remember the policemen.

Q:    Funny. Was the police station that place in Guithavon Street then [now site of Mill Vale Lodge, Guithavon Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, where they’ve got it for the centre, isn’t it.

Q:    The clinic, isn’t it. But you don’t remember seeing any policemen much?

Mrs I:    No. I don’t think they could have had …. Whoever was the magistrate, Philip Hutley, of course, J.P., J.P.

Q:    Yes, of course, the farmers mostly.

Mrs I:    Yes, it would be the councillors, of course. That was each Tuesday, I remember.

Q:    It’s still Tuesday now, I think.

Mrs I:    Oh, is it?

Q:    Funny, isn’t it? Where did they have the court then?

Mrs I:    There, Guithavon, yes.

Q:    At the police station, of course, yes.

Mrs I:    And the policemen lived there. Well I remember Inspector Girt[?]. But that’s, old, you see, but not as children.

Q:    Not when you were little, no?

Mrs I:    I don’t. Of course there was policemen, wasn’t there?

Q:    I think, they used to have people on the beat, you know, didn’t they, perhaps they didn’t need them where you lived [laugh]?

Mrs I:    No. Strange, though.

Q:    Yes, it is, isn’t it.

Mrs I:    That I don’t remember a policeman.

Q:    You say you remember about the court being on a Tuesday, did you notice anything different about then?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, you noticed they all went.

Q:    What did you used to see, all the magistrates coming, when you were at school?

Mrs I:    Yes, going, and the people go, yes.

Q:    And the people that were ….?

Mrs I:    Yes. But you didn’t see them taken in the prison vans.

Q:    Didn’t you?

Mrs I:    Never had a van. You’d watch, on a Tuesday, you were interested.

Q:    Yes. Can you remember what sort of things they used to have to go to court for?

Mrs I:    Chiefly breaking windows, and stealing.

Q:    Really, yes?

Mrs I:    That’s all. Getting drunk, and disorderly. The boys were a nuisance. But if you just stole a little thing, it was the policeman.

Q:    You remember the policemen doing that sort of thing, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh, yes. I remember one little boy particularly, well in fact it was Mr Poulter’s [Albert’s] brother. He only went into the Dr Combes’ garden and stole some grapes, and he was put in a Reformed School at Chelmsford, just for that simple thing.

Q:    Really? Goodness. So what, the policemen caught him?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    I wonder how they found, do you think they were watching for him or something?

Mrs I:    Yes. Well I’d forgotten, but when a death came, you see, and he came to the funeral, and I thought ‘Oh of course’, and then you think, don’t you, ‘oh of course, I knew Ernie’. I thought ‘Oh yes, you went into that Approved School’.

Q:    Goodness. And yet probably other children would steal lots of fruit and nobody would see?

Mrs I:    Yes. Or if you did anything naughty in the housework. I remember one boy, their mother was paralysed, and after it was all cleaned up he would sprinkle dirt or something like that. And in the School he’d go, ‘cos he was naughty. Or chickens, they’d steal a chicken. But they went for the simplest little thing, into an Approved School.

Q:    And other children could get away with it you think, without?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    I wonder why that was?

Mrs I:    That was at Chelmsford, I remember.

Q:    Do you? And what, they went and stayed there right through their schooldays, more or less?

Mrs I:    Yes, right through, yes.

Q:    Left home altogether?

Mrs I:    And then the army came and they were released, weren’t they?

Q:    Yes, I suppose so, yes. I suppose, talking of people leaving home, I suppose the Workhouse would still be there then, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes. Well, if they got out of work, they used to walk to Braintree. We used to say to the Union.

Q:    I see, that was at Braintree?

Mrs I:    Yes. ‘Cos the thrashing tackle, there were several men there, I remember, paper[?] men. And you’d say ‘Oh, they’ve had to go into the Union, they’ve got no home’. And they would have to walk. And I don’t know if they had their money, they used to have the money, but I think it was, used to go to Braintree and you would say you were ‘on the parish’. Used to give the people perhaps five shillings a week, and you would say ‘Well, they’ve had to go on the parish’.

Q:    Would they have to go to Braintree to get it?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Even just to get the money?

Mrs I:    Yes to get the money, you see.

Q:    But some people actually went into the Union did they, and stayed there?

Mrs I:    Into it, oh yes. And then the girls came out and there was a Home next to the Bridge Hospital, Poplar Hall, where the girls came from Braintree Union, yes [north-west corner of Hatfield Road and Spinks Lane].

Q:    I didn’t know that. ‘Cos I think before the Bridge Hospital was the hospital, that was the Union, but that was before your time, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that was before my time.

Q:    It seems a long way to go to Braintree, wasn’t it, especially if you weren’t very well fed or anything.

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    I know there was something else I was going to ask. Oh yes, do you remember any newspapers, how did you find out about what was going on?

Mrs I:    The railway station, and, Afford’s, on the corner [70 Newland Street]

Q:    Did you grandma buy a newspaper, or did you have to go and see?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, used to go and get your newspaper, used to like to. Oh, and I was never allowed a comic-cuts.

Q:    Weren’t you?

Mrs I:    No. Now it’s all they buy the children today, the comic-cuts, and my children didn’t have them.

Q:    Did some of the other children, when you were little, your friends had them, did they?

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    They didn’t? But they did have them in the shop?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, they had them.

Q:    So some people had them. But you didn’t know anybody that did, then?

Mrs I:    No, no.

Q:    So that was how, things like big events, that was how you would find out about them, from the newspaper, then?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, yes.

Q:    What newspaper was there, were there?

Mrs I:    Weekly.

Q:    Weekly, mostly?

Mrs I:    Yes, nothing much.

Q:    ‘Cos for instance, you said you remembered the Boer War well [Mrs I: Yes, I remember that. Kimberley], some of the things that happened there you would read in the newspaper, would you? What do you remember happening in Witham?

Mrs I:    I remember when my people came from the War, and there was an aunt[?] in[?] Kimberley, I always remember I had a half a sovereign, I expect, it was a little gold farthing, and I always remember going across to the shops to buy a doll, I remember that part of it.

Q:    Which shops did you get the doll, get the doll at?

Mrs I:    Ottley’s.

Q:    Ottley’s?

Mrs I:    Ottley’s, we called it, Miss Orries[?], yes I remember that.

Q:    ‘Cos I remember, I don’t know whether this would be when you were at school, in 1900, when Mafeking was relieved, and things like that ….?

Mrs I:    Yes [???] Boer War, yes, we beat Kruger [Kruger with a soft g]

Q:    What did they do at school when something like that happened?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, we used to have that, used to say ‘The Queen will reign over Victoria, and Kruger will stick in a tree’. ‘French, Roberts and Buller’, that’s right, ‘Baden-Powell and White, all went out to Africa to have a jolly good fight. When the War is over, how happy will be, the flag will fly over Victoria, and Kruger will stick in a tree’ [laugh]. See, we used to have all that, you see, interesting.

Q:    So you were probably more interested in things going on?

Mrs I:    Yes, we loved it.

Q:    So it gave you something to find out about?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did it make much difference to Witham otherwise. Like, I mean, I know the First War, and even the Second War, made a difference to the people in England, did the Boer War make much difference to you otherwise?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh yes.

Q:    In what ways?

Mrs I:    Oh the different, didn’t come back, you know, they went, oh no, oh no. I remember Kimberley, I always remember that.

Q:    ‘Cos I suppose it was not long after that when Queen Victoria died, was it. Can you remember that at all, what happened then?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I remember, at school, yes, no, the Corona-, her Diamond Jubilee, we had the medals. But I remember, oh I remember going to Church.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, I do, All Saints.

Q:    You mean the Jubilee, or when she died?

Mrs I:    When she died. And then the Coronation followed on.

Q:    Yes of course, yes.

Mrs I:    Edward’s, yes.

Q:    So what happened then?

Mrs I:    Oh we had the medals and the mugs.

Q:    Like the Jubilee?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did they have anything else on in the town, anything special to celebrate?

Mrs I:    Then a Treat, yes, we had a tea. In the hall, yes, you’d have a tea. And that’s when you’d be presented with your mug.

Q:    I see, yes. So you’ve got the mug still, have you?

Mrs I:    Yes, I’ve got the mug. The children have got theirs. I haven’t a mug of Queen Victoria, but Marie has the little teapot that I had, you know, for the child’s tea-set. She’s got the teapot but not the …. I got a little tea-set with the Princess Margaret when they were small.

Q:    Of course it’s the Jubilee next year, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Wonder what, oh, I don’t agree with it, I’m not interested.

Q:    Are you not?

Mrs I:    No, I’m not interested at all. In fact I rather pull Philip to pieces when he makes his speeches. Because after all, he’s not an Englishman, he’s Greek, isn’t he, and he came into England poor, didn’t he, and we’re keeping him. Well I never ought to say we, I’m sorry, but we are, aren’t we?

Q:    I suppose we are yes, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh no, I don’t think he should criticise. No, I’ve gone off Royalty.

Q:    Oh that’s ….

Mrs I:    It was nice in our young time.

Q:    Because it used to be quite important, probably, when you were little?

Mrs I:    Oh very, but not today, not today, not the same, is it?

Q:    I think probably John’ll want to go to work in a minute. Do you want to go and get on with your jobs now?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. Have you finished?

Side 6

Q:    Let’s, wait a minute, that’s your one [photo on Christmas card]. Chipping Hill ones are up at this end. We’ll start with those, seeing you’ve got one. Wait a minute, there’s Chipping Hill, let’s start ….

Mrs I:    I don’t think you’ve got with the houses, have you?
II 16 a chipping hill (Mike Wadhams photo)

North side of Chipping Hill Green
North side of Chipping Hill Green

Q:    Where are we. There look, that must be nearly the same, I should think, isn’t it? [showing photograph reproduced above: see pictures 2a and 2b,  including 32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill and possibly other later numbers, since demolished]

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that’s a plainer one.

Q:    It’s nearly the same, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, that is the one, oh yes.

Q:    You said the sweep used to live there, did you?

Mrs I:    That’s the sweep, yes.

Q:    What, the big one in the front [(1) in picture; 1, 2, 3 and 4 are all parts of 32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill, on the green, since demolished]?

Mrs I:    And then there were three, I remember an old lady used to live in there, she always was smoking a pipe, by the fireplace [probably (2) on picture].

Q:    Really? That was when you were little, was it?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, when we came up to Mrs Doole’s, to Vera’s, and Cissie. Now, I went to see Cissie yesterday, Cressing Road [possibly Miss Taylor], and she came there to stay with Mrs Doole because their mothers were sisters.

Q:    I see, Mrs Doole was over ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s Mrs Grape’s mother.

Q:    On, in the Post Office [45 Chipping Hill]?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right. Oh, and I remember, we used to see the sweep, and this old lady, it was a Mrs Butler.

Q:    Mrs Butler? You’ve got a good memory, haven’t you?

Mrs I:    Yes, bellringer.

Q:    You’ve got a good memory, haven’t you?

Mrs I:    Yes. And a Mrs Clark [probably 3 on picture]. Somebody said the other day ‘Shaver Clark’, now what were they showing me? And they said ‘That’s Shaver Clark’, and I said ‘Oh yes, I remember’. And the little one just at the bottom [probably 4 on picture], you can remember them all.

Q:    Really, those are the cottages ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, that was the sweep’s, that part came on to the green.

Q:    Actually there’s another picture, yes, there, look.

Mrs I:    Oh look, you’ve got some people there.

Q:    I should put your glasses on, you be on them!

Mrs I:    Oh, I never.

Q:    Except they’re a bit small, I don’t know whether you’ll be able to tell.

Mrs I:    There’s one in Church Street they say they’ve got with me, somebody said the other day.

Q:    Oh well, you never know. It’s a bit faint that one, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Very.

Q:    I expect it was just whoever was passing?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, because look at this hat, there’s the bowler. Oh yes.

Q:    ‘Cos who was the blacksmith then?

Mrs I:    Quy, still Quy. Oh no of course, sorry.

Q:    And then it was Dorking’s, wasn’t it.

Mrs I:    Dorking. It was Quy. Poor old Quy, he went to live in the Avenue and his father before him, and they always went down to the mill, as we called the mill, fishing, always sitting on that wall, fishing.

Q:    The bridge one, yes [1 Powershall End]?

Mrs I:    And Dorking, that was there, of course that’s why ….

Q:    They were Witham people, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. And that’s why, he worked for him as a boy and he left them the business. But it did get ‘dilaperated’, didn’t it?

Q:    It did, didn’t it. It wasn’t all that good then, was it?

Mrs I:    Oh no, oh no. But course, Quy himself kept it in repair, you do, don’t you, when it’s yours. Oh there’s the lamp-post, that’s what we used to have. And that beautiful green, and they’ve spoilt it.

Q:    It was quite small, then, I suppose, wasn’t it. You see that’s the ….?

Mrs I:    There might be another one?
II 17 a chipping hill green (Mike Wadhams pic 17a))

North side of Chipping Hill green, closer
North side of Chipping Hill green, closer

Q:    See [showing photograph: see pictures 3a and 3b, Chipping Hill closer, shown above], that’s got this, it’s funny that, is that part of his house, that funny ….?

Mrs I:    Oh that’s the same one. Yes, you see, she fenced that off.

Q:    It’s a fence, is it [(1) in picture]?

Mrs I:    Yes, well then the person that sent me this [Christmas card] wondered if I should recognise it because her grandma, she said, lived at the back of these, you see, you can see [(5) on photo, 26 Chipping Hill]. You know where it is now, don’t you?

Q:    That’s those ones down there, isn’t there yes.

Mrs I:    You’ve seen that one, haven’t you. Well then there are two [28 Chipping Hill and 30 Chipping Hill]. But you see, with this, the sweep, putting this fencing up, you see it hid those two people at the back.

Q:    Yes, it must have been ….?

Mrs I:    Oh you see, these three doors, look [32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill].

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I remember Vera Rudkin living there.

Q:    What, she was the ….?

Mrs I:    Sweep, yes.

Q:    I suppose the sweep would be kept busy in those days, wouldn’t he.

Mrs I:    Oh isn’t that lovely.

Q:    Yes, I don’t know who took that, it’s from a museum somewhere, that one.

Mrs I:    That would be Mrs Finch living there, Mark Russell, he was gardener at the Vicarage.

Q:    The one next to the gate [26 Chipping Hill]?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    The gardener?

Mrs I:    Yes. And he was killed in the 1914 War, I remember, Mark Russell.

Q:    Oh, this is a nice one.

Mrs I:    It’s nice that, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh, it is.

Q:    Yes, I’ve never seen another one of those.

Mrs I:    See how they used to put their windows in the roof?

Q:    The ones at the top, that must have been the bedrooms, I suppose?

Mrs I:    Yes, always. Then they’d only be a shilling a week, those rents, yes.

Q:    Yes, ‘cos I was thinking, I didn’t talk to you much about when you went out to work, you were collecting the rents, you said?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes.

Q:    Who did you collect them for?

Mrs I:    Yes. Well, over, oh, for Mrs Wadley at the bottom. And the houses opposite here, these four [11-14 Chalks Road], were the biggest rent, four and sixpence. I always remember ….?

Q:    Four and six, yes. That’s not your houses, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes, my four.

Q:    Your houses, yes, I see.

Mrs I:    The others were not, the others were smaller.

Q:    So what Mrs Whiteley [actually Wadley] owned them all, did she?

Mrs I:    Yes, and I, there were twenty-five, the ones into Church Street, and these four.

Q:    Those weren’t hers [32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill]?

Mrs I:    Oh no.

Q:    No. Where did Mrs Whiteley [actually Wadley] live?

Mrs I:    With the, Vera Grape’s, only I will say Vera Doole because I know them by their maiden names, don’t I?

Q:    Yes. That’s at the, Dean House [21 Chalks Road]?

Mrs I:    Vera. Yes, that’s right. Well, it was from the shop, you see [48 Church Street]. You went from the shop, you know, the shop that now’s there, and you went the back way, into, that was a private house after the business house, you see, and you popped across.

Q:    Sorry, this is the, where was that, at the ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, you went from Church Street back into the big, to Dean House, you see, it was a house that belonged to the business.

Q:    Oh, I see, oh I see.

Mrs I:    Yes, and horses, and everything there for the bread van, were where the houses are now built [probably 22-24 Chalks Road], those that are down. That was a meadow, you see, with the horses, because you’d got to put somewhere for the horses to feed, hadn’t you. Oh, when I think of it. You know I ought not to say it, but that’s spoilt, because people want to live, and want houses don’t they? But you know, when you think.

Q:    It’s a big change, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Well, that was nicer. Once they started it was best to continue [probably enlarging Witham].

Q:    So that, what was the bus-, so the business then, the business at Dean House was ….?

Mrs I:    Yes the bakehouse, they had.

Q:    The bakehouse. Was that in the Dean House part?

Mrs I:    No, in Church Street.

Q:    Oh in the Church Street. And it was all connected through round the back, was it? I see, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh, that’s the way, yes. And the horses used to have their heads over the stables when you passed through.

Q:    ‘Cos I think there’s some, there is some of Church Street, which might ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, I wondered.

Q:    Well, here we are, look, you know where that is, don’t you? That doesn’t look very different really, does it, that’s Chalks Road, except it was obviously before our houses were built [north side]? [showing photograph: see pictures 4a and 4b, Chalks Road, middle]


m0283 chalks road

East end of Chalks Road
East end of Chalks Road

Mrs I:    Oh, now why did they change it to Lane? I still have a letter come Chalks Lane. I don’t know why, ‘cos I think it was …. Oh, they look very nice, don’t they. These were Chalks [(1) on picture, now 1-4 Chalks Road], and there’s the two [(2) on picture, now 5-6 Chalks Road].

Q:    The Chalks were the end ones, end four were they?

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh, they look very different, don’t they. I should have never thought it. Oh, I should think it was taken purposely for these four.

Q:    When they were quite new perhaps, yes [probably photo later actually]?

Mrs I:    Oh I should imagine that. Oh there’s the carts[?], you see, look.

Q:    Yes, it was obviously after they had the cars, wasn’t it. And yours was there, then, as well [12 Chalks Road].

Mrs I:    Oh yes, you just caught that one. See but these four, you see, look so small, and they’re the same size.

Q:    It’s just the way the photo went, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes, the photo, it went from that end, far end.

Q:    So Mr Chalk had all these four [1-4 Chalks Road], did he, and then ….?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    But not those?

Mrs I:    No, because those were all Tylers.

Q:    What, the two in the middle, yes [5-6 Chalks Road]?

Mrs I:    Yes, the two. Oh I do think it was a pity they changed from Chalk Lane.

Q:    Oh and that’s the other end [showing photograph: see picture 5, Chalks Road, west end].


Western end of Chalks Road
Western end of Chalks Road

Mrs I:    You haven’t got one?

Q:    That’s just the gate, the fence?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that’s after Dean House. And the almshouses are still there, aren’t they [50 Church Street and 52 Church Street], and the brick wall. And of course this was all vacant. Chalk Lane.

Q:    So this was …. When was Dean House built, then, I wonder?

Mrs I:    Oh, when I was very small.

Q:    Was it, yes?

Mrs I:    Yes. Because I remember her mother living in Church Street, and we said ‘Oh, the house is going to be built’. Oh, I did know, ‘cos Mr Doole asked me when they bought it. Because he altered it, he had the windows put at the side to make the dining room larger. And I’d got those photographs but I gave it to him ‘cos of course he was interested, he wanted it altered.

Q:    And that went right through round the to the shop way?

Mrs I:    Right through, yes.

Q:    Yes, ‘cos these are ….?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, look and you can see Richards the builders, can’t you, there. There’s the back way of theirs [56 Church Street and yard behind].

Q:    That was there, and there’s just a sort of bank there, where the houses are now, isn’t it [on right, north side of road]?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. Oh it was lovely then, and that was where the ….

Q:    I remember you telling me one time about you getting the lamps [in Chalks Road]?

Mrs I:    Yes, well I did that.

Q:    When was that, was that when you lived here?

Mrs I:    Yes, we had one person, one remark, I went just our road [Chalks Road], and just round the corner, to the corner, and there were some Ottley girls, and of course, they went dancing, and it was the auntie that lived next door. You always found that in olden times, that they went, mother, and then the daughter lived in it. Same as Mrs Hayes, Mrs Hayes there then the daughter lived in it [11 Chalks Road]. Joan, who we call Joan, her mother and father were there, yes [10 Chalks Road]. Billy Dazeley, his mother and father [6 Chalks Road]. They always did that sort of thing, passed it on. Because they lived together in those days, didn’t they, more or less.

Q:    When they were married, they’d stay there too, yes?

Mrs I:    When they were married they never had their own homes. And I often think of that. And so, next door was the Ottleys’ relatives. ‘Oh no’, she said, ‘we don’t want the lamps to go out late at night’ [probably meaning don’t want them on at all?]. Of course we knew that she was nasty, you see, because, you know, she knew these girls went out dancing. But no, that’s how we got the lamp. I always think of that.

Q:    When was that then, about?

Mrs I:    Oh, Joan [Shelley] said to me the other day, ‘Have you got that photograph?’ You see, people ask you for them, and you pass on. I think it was because I was with a little girl and she said ‘You haven’t got the photograph of me as a baby, ‘cos I haven’t got one?’. Only you pass it over, and the dog, but I regret that. Joan often asks.

Q:    So that was when you were living there that you got the lamp?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    So there was no light at all then?

Mrs I:    No, no lamps. And you know the lamplighter used to come along, you know, pull them at night.

Q:    Yes?

Mrs I:    Yes, it was nice to see it all lighted, the lamps, I often think of that. Yes, I did it for Mrs Wadley, I did it. She said ‘You know the people, perhaps’, you know, ‘they’ll be a little different’. But of course that didn’t thankful[?] of her, but still, it was nice. Mr Wadley was the councillor, and we were pleased.

Q:    Yes, so you took it to him?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Mr Wadley?

Mrs I:    Yes, and the lamp was put on.

Q:    Yes, where was he?

Mrs I:    He was a councillor. But he was in the bakehouse. He was the grocer and bakehouse, they were in three then [48 Church Street and perhaps 46 also]. They were only wooden places then, with the grapevines.

Q:    Oh really?

Mrs I:    Mrs, now I gave that photograph to, Keeble, only she’s Mrs Smith. She wanted it for the school, the third house in Chalk Road [Gladys Smith, Michaeldene, Chalks Road].

Q:    Yes, Howbridge School they’ve got a lot of photos, haven’t they, yes.

Mrs I:    Well she asked me. I said, oh yes, you can take that to Mr Smith [probably Maurice Smith, former head of Howbridge]. And then she said ‘Do you remember who built them?’ ‘Well, I said, it’s on the deeds, I can get the deeds’. And it was a Jacobs.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, they were only wooden, with these grapevines.

Q:    Oh, that’s the Church Street houses?

Mrs I:    Church Street [probably 48 Church Street, possibly 46 Church Street as well].

Q:    Where you had the deeds of?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Oh, I see.

Mrs I:    Yes, that was pulled down, you see, and altered. Oh you do ….

Q:    So whereabouts, there’s one here of Church Street, I think?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I suppose you’ve got all Charity Row, as we call it, the little row opposite the church, have you?

Q:    I was wondering if I’d got one of where the bake ….? That’s, I was just wondering where the, there, look [showing photograph: see pictures 6a and 6b, Church Street].


m0719 church street with kate say

Church Street near the junction with Chalks Road
Church Street near the junction with Chalks Road

Mrs I:    Oh, look.

Q:    There’s some people there.

Mrs I:    Oh, I can see some people there, I can see Kate Say [(1 on pic]. Oh, yes, and Annie Thompson, oh yes [(2) on pic].

Q:    Are those the ones in the road there?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes. Oh, yes. No, you see, that’s done in Wadley’s time [(3) on picture, 48 Church Street].

Q:    What, the shop, that’s Woods?

Mrs I:    And then there’s Hasler’s, yes. That was a shop there, on the corner [54a Church Street].

Q:    Was it? What did they do there?

Mrs I:    Well. Oh, that was a nice shop, it was a pork butchers.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    And, he was paralysed, and of course when this was sold, during the war, Freda [Elfreda] Griggs, you know, the music teacher, well she came to take over that shop, after the 1914 War [48 Church Street].

Q:    Oh, I see.

Mrs I:    And he bought it. Her mother [hushed], well it doesn’t matter, her mother couldn’t afford, her father died, they couldn’t afford the rent, so of course it went to the agents, you see, and Hasler thought if he bought that over, he wouldn’t have competition.

Q:    Quite, yes.

Mrs I:    So he came out of the pork butchers and went into there.

Q:    What, and his shop just closed?

Mrs I:    Yes. Then, closed that, and Freda, you see, course he was able to get Griggs out, and so of course Freda went into the little cottage [probably 54A Church Street].

Q:    To his place?

Mrs I:    Yes. And then they moved into Chalk Road later [Beverley, Chalks Road]. They was a very gifted family, Freda and her two brothers were.

Q:    Were they?

Mrs I:    So the Vicar, you don’t get that charity these days, so the vicar and Dell, the County High School at Braintree, schoolmaster, paid for Rex, and he’s beautiful with art. Have you, you’ve heard of him?

Q:    His drawings, yes.

Mrs I:    It was because he was clever. But the other poor boy was killed, in the bombing, in Chelmsford [Alfred, at Hoffman’s, Second World War]

Q:    Really.

Mrs I:    So Freda’s very, but, Freda was just unfortunate, she didn’t make the eleven-plus, so she couldn’t be the music teacher at Braintree.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    So she went on her own. Wasn’t it a pity?

Q:    Isn’t that a shame?

Mrs I:    She just hadn’t got that education, but she’d got the music talent, hadn’t she. She’s very interesting, she’s very nice. She always, you know, just pops in and sends a card for old times sake.

Q:    That’s right. Was it here, it was somewhere up here that you told me there was a shop for the soldiers in the War?

Mrs I:    Oh, this was it [48 Church Street].

Q:    That was there at the same place, was it?

Mrs I:    That was, Freda, you see, when Freda came, and of course it was empty, so of course the soldiers went in there.

Q:    Oh I see, that was between ….?

Mrs I:    It was the, all the meat of the soldiers, you had, yes well it was between 1914 and 1920. And all the meat. Oh, that was good. Oh, several of the girls married soldiers from there, smile about, I often smile about it.

Q:    What, they lived in there as well as ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes. See, ‘cos there was the stables for the soldiers to all go into, you see.

Q:    Oh, that was still there then, yes?

Mrs I:    Yes, it was the headquarters.

Q:    And this business with the grapevine, the thing with the grapevine?

Mrs I:    That’s where the grapevine was, where the shop is.

Q:    Where the shop, so the shop wasn’t there at all then?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, only it was wood, you know, just the boards across, and then the grapevine to cover. Then it was made into the nice …..
18    Q:    Yes, and the bakehouse was round ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, beautiful place. That happened quite recently, that was taken down. In, was it Mr Pendle? No, Mr Wood did it [Vivien J.Wood].

Q:    Oh, did he?

Mrs I:    Were you here in Mr Pendle’s time?

Q:    No, no, only Mr Wood was here when we came.

Mrs I:    Oh. Well, Mr Wood, he did that because those people that live opposite, next to Joan, he was in there, and I don’t know why they took it down. But oh, the rats. After, we had them, all along the back. But I think it was a pity that they took the bakehouse down. You know, ‘cos it was so useful, and another thing, it was so interesting for people to go to see the bread troughs, you see, because they were expensive.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    I was surprised they did that.

Q:    So Mr Pendle used to use it still as a bakehouse, did he?

Mrs I:    Yes, Mr Pendle did it, and he was proud of it. But Mr Wood had it all down, and then had his garden, a pool, and different things.

Q:    Yes, yes.

Mrs I:    But I think it was a pity. Oh, I do, great pity, I was very surprised. And this little one, look, that’s got the archway over, that was in steel [42 Church Street]. So Mr Richards said to me ‘I think, Dolly, I shall keep that archway, but’, he said, ‘I’ll do it in wood’, so have you noticed it’s got the wood, yes.

Q:    Yes, in fact there’s quite a lot of arches like that in Witham, there’s one next to the doctors [127 Newland Street].

Mrs I:    Yes, very.

Q:    Was that Mr Richards?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right.

Q:    Yes, I’ve often wondered who built them, ‘cos they’re all rather the same, aren’t they?

Mrs I:    Yes. He’s got his house in, he’s got his house, Powershall End, and he’s got that put over [26 Powershall End]. But these dear old people, they used to sit in that little seat. It was ironwork, you see. Now Mrs Richardson was telling me, the person that lives in this next house now [44 Church Street], she said she had a person come to see her, and she said ‘This is my old home, and do you think’, she said, ‘would you mind, if I looked over it?’. Of course she found it very different, ‘cos of course, Mrs Richardson had done it up nicely. Oh, that’s a nice part, but all this was Hasler’s, but you can’t see it’s a shop, can you?

Q:    No you can’t, I didn’t realise that, no.

Mrs I:    I always remember they pulled that down on a Good Friday morning, ‘cos what a strange, I suppose that was for the Easter holiday, wasn’t it, ‘cos there was the pavement and all there, there’s no pavement now.

Q:    No there isn’t, there was a pavement round the corner there, was there?

Mrs I:    Pavement there. Yes, they were just thatched, two little thatched cottages.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    And the pavement, there’s no pavement now.

Q:    Which were thatched, you mean, that’s thatched, is it?

Mrs I:    No, after this, just on, that would be the house, wouldn’t it, the business house, then there were two thatched cottages.

Q:    Oh, I see, in Chalks Road, were they, oh, I didn’t know [behind 54 Church Street]?

Mrs I:    In Chalks Road, now it’s just a garden isn’t it?

Q:    That’s right, I didn’t know they were there.

Mrs I:    Yes. I always remember, it was on a Good Friday.

Q:    That they pulled the cottages down?

Mrs I:    Yes, started on a Good Friday.

Q:    Did Mr Hasler live there, or somebody else, in the cottages?

Mrs I:    Oh no. Oh yes, his mother. Again, that I told you, mother, and then you see Mr Hasler was with his crutches, you know, he was paralysed. You see and I always remember they would have huge stacks of dates, now you never see them like that, do you, and they used to have a huge fork. And they used to have brawn, and sausages, it was a lovely little pork shop. Now we’ve got nothing, have we?

Q:    No.

Mrs I:    Oh, it really was, that was really a nice shop.

Q:    So when you, did you start collecting the rents, you would collect them every week, presumably, when you were collecting the rents?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, you dare not ….?

Q:    Did you start that straight after school?

Mrs I:    Oh no. I was older.

Q:    No, you tried the dressmaking, you said?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, yes. Oh, but you couldn’t do the ….

Q:    What else did you do, you didn’t like dressmaking?

Mrs I:    You couldn’t do this, no, I went into the shop, you see, that was the beginning [48 Church Street].

Q:    Oh, I see, after the dressmaking?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Oh, I see, and that’s how you got to know them?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, that was a good time, that was, with the baker boys. ‘Cos the baker boys, you see, they boarded in. You see, ‘cos they get up, don’t you, four o’clock in the morning, to do the bread. Then you’ve got to take it out, deliver it. It was a beautiful place.

Q:    What was your job, then?

Mrs I:    In the shop, used to help. Oh, and your poor hands. Oh, they used to take them out of the oven. Course, you, oh, it was terrible.

Q:    What, hot was it?

Mrs I:    Yes. And then sometimes they would go in the water butt, that was quite all right because of course they’d got the horses to eat it.

Q:    [laughs] Yes.

Mrs I:    Oh, I had some good times, there.

Q:    So you had to be there when, you had to be there early as well, did you, to help?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, oh yes, you’d have to do it. Oh, and the brawn, and the different things there’d be on the back. And then, this, see, now Freda’s mother [Griggs] did this, that was the business [48 Church Street], and this was the store house [46 Church Street].

Q:    Oh, on the right of the shop there?

Mrs I:    Yes. There was only Mrs Richardson’s next to this one, that was a house [44 Church Street]. Oh, my dear, that used to be, filled with wasps, ‘cos we used to keep vinegar, and treacle, you know, the golden syrup, but we say treacle. And that was, that was Freda’s mother that did this, she was a businesswoman. She did that cottage up, that store place up, after the soldiers left, and let it as a cottage.

Q:    Oh, I see?

Mrs I:    We made a bit of fuss about it, but after, and, she was living in the business, and the cottage for ten shillings a week, and we had to go to the agent, you see.

Q:    Yes. Where did you live when you worked there?

Mrs I:    In my house.

Q:    When you, was it when you first left school?

Mrs I:    No, when I came, this is in my, in my married time.

Q:    Yes, so I mean, when you worked there, did you live at the shop as well?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    I see, yes. ‘Cos of course your grandma had died then, hadn’t she.

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes. Yes, but then I knew, with the business, through the back way, into Dean House.

Q:    Oh, I see.

Mrs I:    Yes, because, you know, she was a real friend, she knew my sad circumstances, you see [Mrs Wadley].

Q:    So you sort of stayed with them really, until you were married?

Mrs I:    I went, I did, because she lost her husband, you see, and I went into the business. And there were twenty-five houses, that’s what I used to get, and my patience, you couldn’t get, you dare not go, on a Thursday you used to go, because they worked in the maltings. Well, if you didn’t go on the Thursday, the money’d be gone Friday.

Q:    I see, yes.

Mrs I:    You had to go.

Q:    Did you have a job to get it sometimes?

Mrs I:    Oh. Ooh, terrible, I used to say, they used to say ‘Oh, we’ve had boots for the children this week’, and I used to say ‘Well, if you give me one week this week, I’ll put two down in the book’. We helped them. I only spoke to a person this morning, she’s come from London to live at Powershall End, and she said, ‘Oh, meeting you’. She said ‘I’ve come to live in Witham’. And I said ‘Oh, I always remember you Armistice Day’, ‘cos their father was killed in the War, with five little children. And of course she owed six months rent, and you couldn’t get it, ‘cos it was her husband’s debt. Oh, the people, when they look, I could tell you. And even in the grocery, in the bakery business, debts were terrible [hushed].

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Oh, it was terrible.

Q:    So, what, you were actually serving in the shop, were you, giving people things.

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    What system did they have if they didn’t want to pay?

Mrs I:    Yes, well I told Mr Pendle when he came, about the bad debts, and I said ‘Be careful, be prepared’. Oh, no.

Q:    So if someone would come into the shop and say ‘I can’t pay this week’, what would you do?

Mrs I:    Well, could you, now, could you, could you let them go without a loaf of bread when they’ve got little children?

Q:    Quite. So it was really up to, it wasn’t, it was up to, you wrote it down somewhere in a book or something?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, oh, you had, well we used to keep the books, oh, we had the big books, high up, from the business. But some were good, you could tell, you’d get good people. They would say ‘Well when you’re in the business’, they would pay a shilling off if they gave you the rent [probably meaning landlords].

Q:    Yes, I see.

Mrs I:    You know, if they were real good people. Yes, they’d say, ‘Well, I’ll take ….’ And Mr Pendle did that, but he took them to court.

Q:    Really.

Mrs I:    Mm. He said ‘I’m going to have my money’. No, we didn’t do that, we weren’t unkind over that.

Q:    So that was a sort of grocery and a bakery when you were in there?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, yes.

Q:    And the meat as well?

Mrs I:    Oh, everything. Pork, everything. You see, it was all that part. I’m glad I remembered that wasn’t a cottage.

Q:    Yes, that’s interesting.

Mrs I:    Oh, it was, it was a poor street. I’ll tell you. I told you about that young fellow what I go, when I used to go down the entrance, and that was only a shilling a week. People would never think you were right, honestly. And I always remember the rates were eleven and eightpence in the pound.

Q:    I see.

Mrs I:    See, because of course you’d got to put …. And you could not make them see that, you could not make them see that you paid rates, they thought this rent was wonderful. But you’d got to pay your rates.

Q:    Yes, quite, yes.

Mrs I:    And I always remember they were eleven and eightpence in the pound.

Q:    What, so they paid the rates as well?

Mrs I:    Oh, no.

Q:    Or the rate was in with the rent, yes I’m with you.

Mrs I:    Always the rent. [Q: They paid the rent ….] It was four and sixpence, those four in the road, four and sixpence [11-14 Chalks Road?]. Poor old, he was a guard on the railway, and I always remember his was four and ninepence.

Q:    What, at Mrs Richardson’s [44 Church Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, always remember that.

Q:    Did they change at all, the rents, or did they stay the same all the time?

Mrs I:    Stayed all the time, you couldn’t ….

Q:    So were you doing that right up till you were married, then, were you?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and after. And after.

Q:    A long time then. And after you were married, yes?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, right until she died. Oh yes. Oh, they always remember, because, funny enough, Olive said this morning, she said ‘I always remember you coming to my mother and you said, ‘I don’t know if you realise, now your husband is killed in the War, the bad debts are sealed’. See you couldn’t ….

Q:    No.

Mrs I:    And I know another one old lady, the Woodwards, she kept paying and paying, and I thought that was hardly fair, the others don’t, and I said ‘Oh, I don’t think I should put that shilling on the rent this time, I think you’re good, take it off’. Oh I did, I tried to be good.

Q:    So that was up to you really?

Mrs I:    Oh, I did, well I knew them all.

Q:    So that was quite a responsibility for you, wasn’t it, yes?

Mrs I:    It was a responsibility, but course, Mrs Wadley’d got the money. You see, she’d been the schoolmistress.

Q:    Mrs Wadley had?

Mrs I:    Yes, at the school. Oh, yes, she was good, she’d got the money.

Q:    Where was she, at the Church …. Where was she the schoolmistress?

Mrs I:    No, at, not, it would be the little school that would be Shelley’s, you know that Shelley have got [22 Church Street].

Q:    Oh, the Infants, opposite the Church.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, of course, you’d get, that was a strange school, that was all just one big place, and then the steps all went up.

Q:    Really, one big room?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    What, the steps what, up the middle?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, to go, so you sit like you do, the platform, row after row. Because you see, we had that, we used to go there for Sunday school, and different things, you see, and take the children. It’s been a very interesting place, Church Street.

Q:    It has, really, yes.

Mrs I:    And the Hill, hasn’t it? Oh but it is lovely. But fancy, I can see Kate Say there.

Q:    Isn’t that nice. Well, I’m amazed that you recognised who it is, after all that time.

Mrs I:    But we always called from that corner ‘Little Hell’ [Church Street above Chalks Road]. [Q: I remember you telling me.] They used to drink, and lay in the streets drunk, oh yes.

Q:    Where did she come from?

Mrs I:    Oh, she lived up there somewhere. She was a Peculiars people, I always remember, they were Peculiars [i.e Kate Say].

Q:    Were they?

Mrs I:    I don’t know what chapel they call it now?

Q:    I’ve forgotten.

Mrs I:    Because that’s a new one [Guithavon Valley Evangelical Church]
[The few minutes after this are now at the beginning of side 5, and then after that, continue on side 7]

_____________________________________________

Tape 002. Mrs Dorothy Ireland (nee Goss), sides 3 and 4

Tape 2

Mrs Ireland was born in 1894, and was interviewed on 25 November 1976. when she lived at 12 Chalks Road, Witham.

She also appears on tapes 1, 3, 7, 33, 86, 90 and 97.

For more information about her, see the the notes in the people category headed Ireland, Mrs Dorothy (Dolly), nee Goss

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

Note that these early tapes, being the first interviews I ever did, are examples of how not to do it – all my interruptions and mutterings and unclear questions! JG

___________________________

Side 3

Q:    …. two and a half. You can’t remember going to school?

Mrs I:    Well, you remem-, repeat it to your own children, don’t you? And when I could see all scribbling all on the walls, and I said ‘Well, what else can they expect when the children go to bed in the nursery[?]’, I said ‘they never have paper or pencil’. And that surprised me, you see, it is speaking to the others, I think.

Q:    You compare it with what you …. [Mrs I: Yes, you do, you see.] Do you have grandchildren?

Mrs I:    Yes, just three grandsons. I haven’t a little granddaughter, oh I should love it. Not so much now, but I did at first, because I thought, ‘Oh, I would love a little basket, go and pick the daisies, and see the daisy chain. That’s what, I love children. But boys are very good, aren’t they, the boys? The good thing, they’re right far out in the country, you see, and they’re more interested you see, they’ve got the birds all around, ‘cos their dad is a dentist in Colchester, and he lives right out for convenience because otherwise, a little thing went wrong with the tooth, the phone’d go, so they are right out at Shelley[?].

Q:    So when you were little, could you play with the boys as well as the girls, or did the girls play together mostly?

Mrs I:    Oh well, you went for the boys, didn’t you?

Q:    Did you, even when you were quite little?

Mrs I:    Boys, you do, don’t you. I think boys are great, but I should love a little grand daughter. I was waiting for Clive, but nothing happened, he’s 43. I guess he’s, you know, happy, he likes his bachelor’s life I think.

Q:    You were telling me the things that he told you you should have told me, that you’d forgotten.

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Well, with a bad chest, because when the children, they never had a cough, I was so pleased, but my grandchildren were terrible, and that’s how they heard the tale, the little boys. Renee used to say ‘Mum, what can I do?’ And I said ‘Well, there’s not such a thing as a tallow candle’. We used to have a halfpenny tallow candle at Simpson’s in the High Street, and brown paper, and you put the tallow on the plaster, you see, for your chest. And always mustard in the water if you had a cold.

Q:    Because, was there a candle factory, was it Kings?

Mrs I:    Smith, yes [actually baskets probably], and the brush factory in Newland Street [behind 83 Newland Street].

Q:    Well, that’s right, yes, that was there when you were little?

Mrs I:    Yes, that was why we call that the brush shop yard. And you went right through.

Q:    Were they still making brushes, then, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes, for a time, and then that moved to Braintree.

Q:    Did it, I wondered what happened to that.

Mrs I:    They went to Braintree.

Q:    ‘Cos that would be quite a big concern, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh, it was. And then there was a corsetier, there was a factory just for corsets.

Q:    Was there, where was that?

Mrs I:    Somewhere in the High Street, would it be by the doctors’ [doctors’ is 129 Newland Street]?

Q:    Oh, I see, I didn’t know that. ‘Cos I’m sure I remember somebody telling me about, when you said about the candles that reminded me, that somebody else had told me they were sent to get candles at the factory, and that must have been something to do with, about this throat ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes tallow, not the ordinary candles.

Q:    Now let me think, oh I know what I was going to ask, was your grandma a Goss, or was she ….?

Mrs I:    A Goss, a Goss, yes [actually Rushen, see notes beginning of tape 1]. That’s when my life ended, when …. I was upset over that.

Q:    What was that, when, when she died?

Mrs I:    Yes. ‘Cos I was left, you see, and I should, that was their wish that I should go to Australia, yes, with their auntie. But I didn’t go.

Q:    How old were you when she died?

Mrs I:    Seventeen, no just over the sixteen [this when Mrs Rushen died, probably]. It’s tomorrow really, the day. That was my, that ended my life, really. It did. Well I was sheltered, you know, I was fussed, made a fuss of.

Q:    Was she a good person, an easy person to talk to?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. You see, that’s when you hear the tales, don’t you, the olden times, you hear them chat, don’t you. And I loved elderly people, ‘cos I’ve always lived with elderly people.

Q:    Did she come from Witham too?

Mrs I:    Yes. Rivenhall, I think, yes, and Notley, we’ve always been to the villages.

Q:    So how did it come about that she did this nursing?

Mrs I:    I don’t know, why. Through the doctors, through the doctors, you see.

Q:    I suppose she learnt it on the job, did she?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. The old-fashioned, yes, you know, not the hospital nursing, yes. Oh that makes a difference.

Q:    ‘Cos her house, was it those big houses behind the shops [I was thinking of 82 Newland Street and 84 Newland Street but she may have been thinking of 41 Chipping Hill].

Mrs I:    Yes there’s two, that’s right.

Q:    It was quite a big place?

Mrs I:    Yes, but you see, she’d have the boys in, and the office you see, you’d have the postmen, you see, it was always ….

Q:    I see, they used the house as part of the Post Office?

Mrs I:    Yes, and I know we used to get on the wall and throw apples to the boys.

Q:    How did the postmen used to work in those days, how did they get the post to Witham?

Mrs I:    Oh, the van, the mail van, only not so smart as today, just the ordinary van, Braintree. Oh yes.

Q:    ‘Cos in the house there, so you didn’t have all the rooms there for your living in.

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    How many rooms did you have?

Mrs I:    Couldn’t tell you.

Q:    Did you have to help her a fair bit in the house?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, yes, I always did. Yes.

Q:    I’d better have a look at this [???] questions that I’ve got [???] You said she didn’t have anyone else in the house at all, it was just you and her?

Mrs I:    No, yes.

Q:    So it must have been quite hard work for her if she was going out to work as well?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, yes, but it was only at times, you see, yes.

Q:    For things like washing then, how did you get the hot water?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. We had open fireplaces, didn’t we, and the oven by the side. I often think that’s nice. Because you’d put a baked potato in, or you could put a pudding in, couldn’t you, or something, when you’d got your oven by the side. Oh I think it was nicer. And then we had the big ovens, where you could take a Yorkshire pudding or anything in the bakers. You could take your dinners and have them cooked.

Q:    Could you really? Whereabouts was that?

Mrs I:    Oh, that was when we came into the bakehouse [48 Church Street?]

Q:    Where was that?

Mrs I:    In Chipping Hill.

Q:    That was the one you were telling me about in Church Street?

Mrs I:    Yes, when I came.

Q:    I see, so you could put, they’d cook them for you, would they?

Mrs I:    On a Sunday, yes. Only on a Sunday, that’s all.

Q:    Only on Sundays? So the rest of the time they baked their own things, did they?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. I often say that to the children. Oh how nice, you could put a bread in, and your cheese[?] and put a baked potato. And the chestnuts, you could pop along, it was so different, wasn’t it, you could do different things.

Q:    Slow cooking?

Mrs I:    Oh, an hour, for Yorkshire pudding, I always remember, when the soldiers came in the 1914, we always had the Yorkshire pudding, with the gravy, first, not with the vegetables. And they laughed, they used to say, yes, when it’s teatime, I suppose they will give us the bread, and the butter after [laugh].

Q:    ‘Cos I’m sure they do that in some parts.

Mrs I:    And I think they do now.

Q:    In Yorkshire?

Mrs I:    Yes, I think they have their pudding and the gravy. I expect then they don’t need an after.

Q:    So for hot water ….?

Mrs I:    Just the kettles, yes, and big boilers.

Q:    For washing clothes?

Q:    Yes. I suppose they had those quite recently really, didn’t they?

Mrs I:    Yes, but they were big iron, yes big iron.

Q:    You put them on top of the cooker?

Mrs I:    Yes, on the top of the stove, you’d have an iron made at the blacksmith, you see, for that purpose.

Q:    Because there’d be more, more blacksmiths?

Mrs I:    Yes, of course, ‘cos there was one in the High Street.

Q:    Who had that one?

Mrs I:    Brockes [probably 130 Newland Street]. With the dressmakers next door. Yes, they were Brockes, Marjorie[?].

Q:    So you had things made specially?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. I did go to Miss Brenes opposite a little while for dressmaking but I didn’t like it, I couldn’t sit still, I wanted sport, or to get out and about.

Q:    What, for work, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes. I couldn’t do dressmaking. I don’t like it now, I’m not interested.

Q:    Did you do it at school at all?

Mrs I:    No, we didn’t. Oh, the sewing was interesting, I often tell the girls, because I’ve got some of their samples that they did for college, and they didn’t do the same. They never had a patch. They were never taught to do a patch. And they were never taught whipping. Course you didn’t have embroidery in those days, did you. And all the different little specimens I used to tell them. They never did it.

Q:    Is that what you did at school, bits of practice?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, when you got older. And the only recreation …. We did have dancing classes. And the maypole at the first of May, we always had the maypole.

Q:    Where was that?

Mrs I:    In the ground, you see, ‘cos the teachers, I told you, lived opposite, by the school, we used to go on their lawn, have the maypole. And then we had St. George’s day, we used to have the rose, and then a play, to represent all the colonies.

Q:    When did Empire day come in, did they have that when you were at school?

Mrs I:    That is it, yes, that is it, Empire, we said St. George’s day. Yes, we used to have the red and white roses.

Q:    That was in the morning, was it, or did it go on all day?

Mrs I:    Oh no, just a special day. And May day, we had to have white dresses, and be round the maypole.

Q:    What sort of clothes did you wear the rest of the time?

Mrs I:    No uniform.

Q:    Different clothes from now?

Mrs I:    Yes. I had nice clothes. I ought not to say that, but I did.

Q:    Did somebody make them for you?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, yes. Well, you couldn’t buy anything. You know, Witham, honestly, there’s no nice shops in Witham that used to be. I mean we never went out of Witham to buy anything. There was Spurge’s [42 Newland Street], and there was the London House [74 Newland Street and 76 Newland Street], and Pilcher’s[?]. Oh, there’s nothing now. They’ve brought the people back, but there’s no shops, you have to go to Chelmsford.

Q:    So if you wanted a new dress or something, when you were a child, what did they used to do, take you to a shop?

Mrs I:    Yes, get the material, and you always had them made. Oh, several dressmakers.

Q:    And then the dressmaker would make it for you?
Mrs. I    Yes. And pinafores, we always had. You don’t see pinafores today, do you. And look at the underclothes. Gracious, we used to have a little, we used to call it the stays, the white with crosses across. And your knickers, didn’t you, with the beautiful lace. And look at the little petticoats. And the little bonnets, lace bonnets. None now, is there.

Q:    A lot of ironing to do, I should think?

Mrs I:    Oh, the ironing.

Q:    How did they do that?

Mrs I:    I still have a table. I can’t use an ironing board.

Q:    It is bigger, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    I like a table best.

Q:    What sort of irons did you use?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, those old irons. Oh, the children say ‘Mum, give us the iron’, if they need it to press anything down. Even now the boy will, use the flat iron. Then you had a rake by the fire, you know the blacksmith would make you a little rake, and you’d pop your little iron at the face of the fire. And then you used to have to wet your finger to see if they were hot.

Q:    How long did it last before you had to heat it up again?

Mrs I:    Oh, well you’d have three on. And then when you’d finished using it, you’d pop it back, so you’d always …. And then there was a place where, the mangle, oh it was a strange, huge thing, and it used to draw out and you could put the linen in there and it would close in. Yes, I remember that. Yes, that was at the Crotchet [next to 130 Newland Street] or one of those public houses. ‘Cos look at the public houses there were in Witham.

Q:    Were there a lot?

Mrs I:    Next to one another. And then in Bridge Street, there was a place that we called the Union, but it wasn’t. There used to be tramps, we called them tramps, men travelling, they used to sing, and there was a place there for them to sleep at night.

Q:    What was that called, do you know?

Mrs I:    Yes. The Crotchet, not the Crotchet, no Bridge Street, Carpenter’s Arms [probably 141 Newland Street].

Q:    Can you remember the names of any of the other pubs that aren’t there now?

Mrs I:    No, because, now have they got ….? That big one at the top. One has closed on the corner, the Globe [132 Newland Street], ‘cos Marshall Wash was there, he was a cripple. But the Crotchet is still there.

Q:    Was the, that was in Maldon Road, the Bell was it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and the Peculiar chapel [later the Mason’s hall].

Q:    That was there then was it, that was Maldon Road too, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes, that was Maldon Road, just the back of the school.

Q:    Were there other chapels and things?

Mrs I:    Yes, and the Baptist chapel, was in Maldon Road [later Chapel House, south of no. 2 Maldon Road]. You see, it’s surprising. We say the old times, but there were more buildings, and more to occupy your time.

Q:    When you said about the, the Globe was right on the corner, was it [132 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Somebody told me about the cage, was that there when you were there?

Mrs I:    Pardon?

Q:    The cage? Perhaps not. Where they … the lock-up was near the Globe somewhere. Where, you know, if they caught somebody drunk, they’d put him there.

Mrs I:    Oh, not the police station?

Q:    Not the police station. Perhaps that was before your time.

Mrs I:    No. I should think it was what I said, the Carpenters Arms, where the tramps, we used to call them. We’d say ‘Here comes a tramp’, we used to run.

Q:    Did you? You were frightened of them, were you?

Mrs I:    Yes. And then, you know, they’d come round and sing the hymns and have a little tin round their neck, and put the money in. And the hymns. Strange, wasn’t it? I suppose that’s the only thing they knew, ‘cos religion was very, the chief thing in those days, wasn’t it?

Q:    I remember you saying you went to Church a lot.

Mrs I:    Four times! Well after we were confirmed we, oh we used to burst[?] it, we used to go up six o’clock in the morning Easter Sunday.

Q:     Were there were different sorts of people went to different churches? What sort of people went to the chapel?

Mrs I:    Oh. That Congregational, I can’t understand it. There was a fire there last week and they called it the Reformed church [United Reformed Church, Newland Street].

Q:    They’ve altered the name, yes.

Mrs I:    We said Congregational.

Q:    I think that was quite recent, they’ve altered the name.

Mrs I:    Because Miss Chalk, the Chalks always attended there, I remember. Yes.

Q:    ‘Cos, you said Mrs Chalk, you were in hospital with?

Mrs I:    Yes, with Jimmy’s mother.

Q:    Where did they live then, at that time, Mr and Mrs Chalk?

Mrs I:    In Church Street.

Q:    In Church Street, did they? Is the house there now?

Mrs I:    Yes, those houses are there now. Yes. They pulled the end four down, and they were in those four. Next to the paper shop. Those four were pulled down [paper shop was in a newish place at 41a Church Street at the time of the interview].

Q:    Quite near the Cromwell cottages that you were telling me about [25-31 Church Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    You told me about the clothes. And shoes. I suppose you could get shoes in Witham as well?

Mrs I:    Oh, they smile about the shoes, they used to have big hobnails in their boots.

Q:    Did they? Really?

Mrs I:    And I had a pair, I had them put in ‘cos I thought it was great. And I went to Notley to my granddad, and he cleaned my shoes, and he wrote a terrible letter, to say I couldn’t wear boots like that. We had, the boots used to be made for you, in Chipping Hill, Abbotts. We used to have the boots, and they were always boots, never a shoe. We thought it was wonderful when you had a shoe, and the socks. We always had the stockings.

Q:    You say your granddad at Notley, was that your mother’s ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, great, that was great[?] parents. And he was annoyed.

Q:    What was his name?

Mrs I:    Goss, Samuel Goss.

Q:    So he was a Goss.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I always remember that we used to go to the little mission, and he used to take it, and I thought ‘Whatever for?’ Well, he said, ‘They haven’t a church’. And so he opened this little hall.

Q:    What, at Notley?

Mrs I:    Yes. I often think when I go and when I pass by. ‘Cos the picture’s at the back, to say he opened it, Samuel Goss. Well it was when I used to like to tell my children, you see. And I asked if I could go in so they could see the founder of the little chapel.

Q:    I suppose, going back to the food, I suppose, did you grandma make your own bread and everything as well?

Mrs I:    Oh no, but they did. My children, the girls do now. Yes, they’re making the bread.

Q:    But you got that from the baker?

Mrs I:    Yes, the yeast, the flour. We used to have to go for the yeast. There’s no suet today. For your puddings.

Q:    What sort of things did you have for breakfast, what that the same as it is now?

Mrs I:    Porridge. Quaker oats [laugh]. Used to love the Quaker oat packet. It was a nuisance, ‘cos it’s the cooking, isn’t it.

Q:    Of course you had to leave that on all night?

Mrs I:    Definitely, yes, and then it was ready for the morning. I didn’t like it.

Q:    I suppose you had to have it, did you? Did you have to eat what you were given, did you? Was your grandma quite strict?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Very. Yes, very. The wind wasn’t allowed to blow on me.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Oh I had a sheltered life.

Q:    She kept you in order, did she? What sort of things did she do if you were naughty?

Mrs I:    Well, I was never smacked. I never smacked my children. Do you smack?

Q:    No, not really, no.

Mrs I:    Oh, the people when I see them and I’m passing by the school, and they, oh they smack them. You don’t smack them, do you.

Q:    What did your grandma do when she was ….?

Mrs I:    I only remember, once, and I don’t think I was smacked, I was put upstairs. You know the pea-picking, the pea fields. Well, I was interested, and someone asked me to go, and I came, oh, right up to Chipping Hill, past, over there, and of course they couldn’t find me, wondered where I was. Well, you stay in the pea-field, you’re interested, aren’t you. Used to make the huts, with the pea-rice. I remember that. But I was never smacked, and I’ve never smacked my children. I think that if you do that, well, I think it makes them sulky, to put people, you know, but that’s all you do.

Q:    So you had to eat all up your food, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Keep quiet, did you? Did you play much, you told me about the games you played out of doors. What sort of things did you play indoors, say, in the winter. Did you have toys?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, dolls, and then you would make your dolls, knitting, I always remember, the children [laugh], ‘Put your needle through there, and then you push it down there, and you push that one’. And you don’t notice those movements, do you, when you’re doing it quickly. But I remember as a child, ‘Put it through, put it that way, push it down’. Oh, knitting.

Q:    You learnt that at home, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes. And we used to do knitting. And knitting lace, we used to knit the lace. I didn’t like crochet much.

Q:    No. But you did that when you were quite small, did you?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, we used to, I always remember that.

Q:    ‘Cos I suppose in the winter, if it was cold, if it was dark at four or something, you couldn’t go out to play?

Mrs I:    Oh, went to bed.

Q:    You went to bed did you? [Mrs I: Went early] What time did you go?

Mrs I:    Oh, seven, I should imagine.

Q:    You’d have tea when you came home from school or something, would you? What sort of a tea would you, or dinner or something?

Mrs I:    Oh, not at,. you wouldn’t have it cooked. Jam. You never have jam, do you? Jam used to be chiefly the thing.

Q:    What, for tea-time?

Mrs I:    Yes, you don’t see jam, do you?

Q:    Did she, did you make your own jam at home, or anything like that?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and all pickles, oh yes, and chutney, oh you did everything, helpful.

Q:    You helped did you?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did you have special jobs that were your jobs or did you just do whatever needed doing?

Mrs I:    Well, we had cookery classes, cookery school, was at Miss Mann’s. That was opposite the doctor’s now [124 Newland Street].

Q:    I know, big place.

Mrs I:    That was a school, Miss Mann had the school.

Q:    Oh, you did cookery there, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, we had cookery lessons.

Q:    Who taught you, can you remember?

Mrs I:    Yes, Miss Mann.

Q:    Oh, she did it herself?

Mrs I:    Yes, she did it. We used to go, was it twice a week, I think, and I remember we used to have little round cap, white cap, and sleevelets, you know.

Q:    I think Mr. Godfrey told me they did woodwork there as well?

Mrs I:    Oh, the boys I suppose did the woodwork.

Q:    She was running her school there as well, was she?

Mrs I:    Yes, Miss Mann, yes. Because when Mrs Wakelin came to live there, she said ‘Oh I remember you coming to the cookery classes’.

Q:    Mrs Wakelin?

Mrs I:    Yes. Because that’s, see who’s, that’s Mrs Kemsley’s mother. She lives in the, Templars Close, doesn’t she. She had the first house built in Templars Close.

Q:    Did she? Was that anything to do with the Wakelins at Freebornes farm, that was them, was it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Oh he was a horrible man.

Q:    Was he?

Mrs I:    Oh he was, he used to swear.

Q:    The farmer?

Mrs I:    He did. And he used to be in the tumbril, and he came once for the elections to hear the result, and because he wasn’t elected ‘Whoo’, he said, ‘I bloody well will never stand again’. Oh, he was annoyed.

Mrs I:    Was that for the Urban Council?

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    What did he stand as? Did he stand by himself or was he with a party?

Q:    Oh by a party but he didn’t get in?

Mrs I:    Was he Conservative or was he Liberal?

Mrs I:    We didn’t have it in those days, we didn’t say. [Q: Oh, you didn’t bother ….] No, no politics wasn’t in it then. No. Nearly all farmers and the big ratepayers used to stand in those days. But I always remember, and I think Bertie Wakelin, and I think, oh he was terrible. He was annoyed.

Q:    ‘Cos it was quite a big farm, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes. And then Philip Hutley, you see, at Powershall End, have you been there?

Q:    He stood for the Council as well did he?

Mrs I:    Oh, he did, he was a big man.

Q:    Was the Urban Council quite a big event, like the other? Did they have meetings and things, talks?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    Did you go to those?

Mrs I:    No, we didn’t go, but of course, naturally, it would be the farmers and the big ratepayers, wouldn’t it.

Q:    Yes. You said Captain Abrey stood?

Mrs I:    Oh, Captain Abrey, yes, and Gardner, the auctioneer, he was next door [perhaps 24 Newland Street or 28 Newland Street: Abrey was at 26 Newland Street). His son was drowned, by the way, I remember that, when we went to Lady woods for skating.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes. That was Jack Gardner. Oh, you made your fun.

Q:    Did you celebrate birthdays much, talking about fun? Do you remember what happened when it was your birthday, anything special?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, you usually had a doll or something. Oh, chocolates. I always remember, we used to have them in tins, not boxes, and I think I’ve got some of the tins, yes. I remember chocolates, chiefly.

Q:    What about Christmas?

Mrs I:    Oh, Christmas was lovely. I mean you had the old Christmas tree, and the, there was everything sugar, everything made in sugar. I remember the sugar mice.

Q:    Did you have people in, or go out a lot or anything?

Mrs I:    We had the, always had the Sunday School treat for then, and the prizegiving. I always remember that, that was the Christmas time. No, very quiet. But they were so different, you had just a stocking. You never see a stocking today. And you had a new, bright new penny, and an orange at the bottom, and just any little wooden toy. They don’t today, they have pillowcases, don’t they. Oh, I don’t think it’s such fun.

Q:    No, I think they expect too much don’t they?

Mrs I:    The boys have them, my grandsons.

Q:    Pillowcases?

Mrs I:    They still put, the pillowcase, but they still put the stockings, the girls like to do what they did. And last year I had a pillowcase, because the second one was getting too old, he knew about Father Christmas. But baby didn’t, the younger one. So they said ‘Well grandma, you have a stocking, you have a pillowcase, and then he’ll think there’s Father Christmas coming’. He said ‘Grandma, he came, didn’t he?’. You see. You’ve got to do it, haven’t you. I always remember and I thought ‘Well that is nice’. And when I was eighty I went, eighty-one, they said grandma, ‘It’s eighty can-, we’ve only one candle, minus eighty’.

Side 4

[First 2 minutes blank].

Q:    I’ve got a cough this time.

Mrs I:    Mine is just first thing in the morning.

Q:    Yes, I think it’s been cold at night, hasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Lovely to have a frosty morning, I think.

Q:    Nice change from all those wet ones, isn’t it. I have some questions here about what happened if you were naughty, I’ve asked you about that, haven’t I? Were you allowed to talk at mealtimes and things like that?

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    You had to keep quiet, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes. Gracious, they chat now don’t they. Yes. They think it’s the proper thing to do, my children tell me.

Q:    Talk at mealtimes?

Mrs I:    Don’t talk with your mouth full, and all those things you had.

Q:    And I suppose no bad language or anything?

Mrs I:    No, gracious.

Q:    What about other people? You said Mr Wakelin swore a lot. What did people think of that, or your grandma think of that?

Mrs I:    Well you see, you had it in the farm, didn’t you, because you’d men working, they’d use it wouldn’t they? You see, naturally. But you know, it sounded awful, he was on his tumbril, you see he came, oh gracious.

Q:    Yes, it’s interesting, ‘cos I’ve heard the names of all these people, but it’s nice to hear what they were like, as well, ‘cos you’d never hear otherwise, do you, nobody would write that down?

Mrs I:    Oh, gracious.

Q:    Was there anybody else that you, that was a bit sort of, that you knew of that was a bit rough and ready like that? [Mrs I: [Shaking head] What was Mr Hutley like?

Mrs I:    Oh, he was great, he was good, he really was, he was helpful to his men, and he would pay the men at harvest time, and that would be the time they would pay their rent. Oh he was, Philip Hutley was a good man, and his sons, you see they all married, you see Ledger, the fruit farm at Faulkbourne, have you seen the fruit, yes, we used to go through the Moors to get the mushrooms. And then there was another bathing place, and we called that Meads. That was a lovely place.

Q:    Up Church Street way?

Mrs I:    Yes, but we didn’t go there, because the boys, you see, they didn’t have bathing trunks, the boys were naked. And I’ll tell you, the County Council came to ask when the roadway was made, you know when you had the field, the pathway laid across [perhaps the River Walk]. Mrs De’ath sent for me at the Woolpack, and she said there’s some people here from the County Council that want to make the roadway, and I had a chat there, oh I kept them smiling, because, I had to …. ‘I wondered why’, he said. ‘Well how did you get across?’. ‘Oh’, I said ‘we walked the wall and jumped the gate’. And he said ‘How did you cross?’ ‘Oh’, I said, ‘We crossed the river’. I wondered what he was waiting for. I said ‘We crossed the river with a tree, to get into Faulkbourne’. Still was, and I thought ‘What are you waiting for?’. So he said ‘Well, when you went in the other direction, to come out into the Cherry Tree’ [Cressing Road]. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘there was an old stile’. The moment I said that, he stopped ‘Can you describe the stile?’ I said ‘Yes, it was a very old oak one with one step, but’, I said, ‘we were too lazy to climb it, we got through’. He said ‘That’s all I wanted to know, because now I know it’s a right of way’.

Q:    And that was where, near the Cherry Tree, you say?

Mrs I:    Yes, and that’s just recently.

Q:    Getting across the, whereabouts was the stile exactly then?

Mrs I:    At the second field. Where they go along to the Vicarage [now the Old Vicarage, Chipping Hill].

Q:    Near the river?

Mrs I:    Yes, and then the next was all swamp. We used to have to put, oh we had galoshes to put over your boots, just short, wore galoshes, because we used to love to go to get the flowers there, for the school, the water buttercups, and the lilies. And that stile business, wasn’t it strange. Well he said that, yes. I mean with the stile.

Q:    What was the name, you told me about the other swimming place, I’ve forgotten what you said the name was there, though, the one down ….?

Mrs I:    Pea hole. [Q: Pea hole.] The Knicky Knocks.

Q:    That was near Blue Mills, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes. Because you see, we used to go to get the primroses, and we never bought nuts. We used to have the hazel nuts. We used to go to Rivenhall Thicks for the nuts. And the chestnuts, we used to go up the Hilly Meadow.

Q:    You did a lot of walking then?

Mrs I:    Yes, and the crab apples. That’s why I walk now.

Q:    Yes, well it’s certainly done you good, hasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes, well my people were always out [???]  Oh I love walking, I think it’s beautiful.

Q:    You said you walked to Braintree, I remember?

Mrs I:    Yes, well it was a strike, yes, the cars weren’t running, and we used to go, and we had a friend, a school friend that had people at Boreham, on the Boreham road, it was nearly into Chelmsford. And on Sunday afternoons when you came from the Catechism, you’d walk straight along the Rivenhall road [now the A12], on to the Fox, have you been in that direction? And then you go all the way round and come the Oak way round. [Q: Just for a walk?] They don’t, do they?

Q:    Just for the sake of a walk?

Mrs I:    Yes, but they don’t do it, do they?

Q:    Because the footpaths are still there, some of them, and you can get along.

Mrs I:    Yes, lovely across, yes. And Olivers Hall, we used to go to Olivers Hall, for the nuts.

Q:    Olivers Hall, is that down Maldon Road way, or a different one?

Mrs I:    No, that was Chipping Hill, my children I used to take there, for the nuts.

Q:    Whereabouts was that?

Mrs I:    Oh, but I didn’t like being in the woods. It’s a lane by the Well land. Do you know we used to call it Wells. It’s Rickstones, the big house, the bottom of Rickstones Road, and then there’s a winding lane [probably path opposite Rickstones farmhouse; were some buildings up there, now demolished]

Q:    I think I know, it goes up towards Rivenhall, there’s Rickstones farm.

Mrs I:    Yes. Well you go right across, it didn’t take you long. We used to say ‘We’re going to Olivers Hall, for the nuts’. You didn’t …. And we were naughty, ‘cos they used to have traps in the different places went for chestnuts. Used to say ‘The man’s trap there, you’ll get caught’. But I don’t think it was for us, I think it was for the animals, the rats.

Q:    Can you remember, I suppose you’d remember when cars and buses and things first came?

Mrs I:    I remember the first car, having a ride, Doctor Ted.

Q:    Did you? He had the first one, did he?

Mrs I:    Yes, there was the first one. There was a lady, I remember, very near Whitehall [18 Newland Street], and her leg, of course they didn’t go in the hospital with broken legs, did they? The doctors. And we knew he’d come every day. And we used to wait, and he’d give us a ride back, we thought a car was wonderful, didn’t we. Remember the first car. And the horse and the trap, I remember, but you always hurt your back, riding, ‘cos you ….

Q:    On the trap? I expect it was bumpy, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes, it was, I remember that.

Q:    Because then you said you played, I supposed you played in the High Street, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, not long, we didn’t go. At our Recreation ground there were a few swings.

Q:    Was there the Park at the back, down Kings Chase, was that there then, or was that more recently. Was that park there then?

Mrs I:    Kings Chase, that was, Recreation ground, didn’t call it a park. ‘Cos Chipping Hill was just as good as a playing field.

Q:    Yes, you told me about that. So was it a bit, you didn’t play in the road much, then?
11    Mrs I:    Oh no, you went out walking. You see, you’d get to know friends at school, wouldn’t you, they’d invite you. I used to go up to Elm Hall quite a lot, and that was a distance, and I remember the water tower being built, the new water tower at Cressing Road, I remember going up there one Sunday morning when I came from Church, oh, I was scared [either the one outside the town, or the one in Cross Road, both now demolished].

Q:    You went up it did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, I did, to stand and look over. Well, you like to do it, wouldn’t you, say ‘Oh, I’ve been up the water tower’.

Q:    You said your grandma was cross when you went to the pea field. But these walks and things, she knew you were going walks, did she?

Mrs I:    Yes, and we used to go, we used to pull the turnips up from the fields, and take them off, have a little bite, and the kohl rabbi, and the beautiful rabbits, we used to love in the harvest time, to go and see them cut the corn, see the little rabbits come. And they used to sell the rabbits on the big stick, and they used to say ’We’ll skin you one for ninepence’. Yes.

Q:    Did you ever go and help in the fields or anything, or you weren’t allowed to?

Mrs I:    No, I wasn’t, no. Because I was, no, but I wasn’t allowed.

Q:    Just ‘cos your grandma didn’t like ….?

Mrs I:    I couldn’t, you see. She’d got my care, you see.

Q:    You think she was specially careful of you, ‘cos she was your grandma, you reckon?

Mrs I:    Yes, I was, I was.

Q:    You didn’t work at all, when you were at school?

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    Well, you had things to do, didn’t you?

Mrs I:    Yes. But naturally you like to go. And then when people speak about the peapicking. And, you know, and they think ‘Oh, of course she didn’t go’. Well you can’t say you went if you didn’t, can you.

Q:    No. I suppose a lot did go, did they, from school?

Mrs I:    Well naturally, and then they had their peas home to sort. They used to have the peas, and sort the peas, Cooper Taber [seed warehouse, Avenue Road]. Oh, there was more interest than there is today.

Q:    I suppose the money would come in handy for a lot of people?

Mrs I:    Oh, the money, the rents were only a shilling, some of the rents.

Q:    Was your house, your grandma’s house rented?

Mrs I:    No, that was theirs. But my house, of course we bought it, they were only four and sixpence a week. My house was only four hundred. Now how many thousands? Gracious. When you think. It is different.

Q:    You didn’t have school on Saturdays?

Mrs I:    Oh no.

Q:    What did you do on Saturdays, play, and walk?

Mrs I:    Yes, went more to the Vicarage, yes.

Q:    Sundays you went to Church all day, we’ve got that. Were you allowed to play games as well on Sundays, or did you have to ….?

Mrs I:    Oh no.

Q:    It wasn’t allowed?

Mrs I:    And you wouldn’t put washing out on a Sunday. Oh, I feel strange for a long time. I never put my nappies on a Sunday, never. No, well, you keep to it, don’t you.

Q:    Oh quite, yes. You had different clothes and things as well for a Sunday, did you?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, your Sunday best. I still keep, I don’t now, but I still keep best, I never dress up, only if I’m going to the girls or that. But you always kept Sunday best, to go to Church, didn’t you? There’s no Sunday clothes now, is there?

Q:    No. Did your grandma take you to Church or did you go with the children?

Mrs I:    Oh, went with the Sunday school, oh yes. And I spent a lot of time at the Vicarage, I was popular, I remember, and they used to have their own Red Cross, into the Vicarage, and I remember cutting my finger once and going each day.

Q:    Really? ‘Cos I know you said there were three doctors, were they all the Gimsons, or were there different doctors?

Mrs I:    Oh, the Gimsons, there were three, and there was Doctor Payne. I suppose you remember Mrs. Taber [Maria Taber, nee Payne], you wouldn’t remember Doctor Payne. You see, they took that house, didn’t they, for the chemist, Stoffer first [High House, 5 Newland Street]..

Q:    The big one?

Mrs I:    Only that wasn’t Stoffer then, it was Doctor Payne. And there was Doctor Tomkin, and there was Doctor, what was the Scotch people, Maiseys, Doctor Maisey, next to the Home and Colonial. Yes, you had different doctors. But with the dentists, there was only one dentist, that was Mr Crisp, I used to go there a lot because I had a frame, see I’ve got rather a pointed jaw.

Q:    Was that different from what it is now? What did they do if they wanted to …? Did you ever have to have any teeth taken out, or anything like that?

Mrs I:    The doctor would take the teeth out, yes. Dr Gimson took, I had several, until I went, you know the other people complained, because you know old-fashioned people didn’t like it, yes, it used to be a shilling to have a tooth out.

Q:    At the doctor’s?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did he do anything to stop it hurting?

Mrs I:    No.  No.

Q:    Or did he just yank it out?

Mrs I:    Yes, the other one would hold your hand and just take it out. But we used to tie a little piece of cotton. Cruel.
17    Q:    Didn’t it hurt?

Mrs I:    It did, yes. I just recently had two teeth out, at the front.

Q:    You know you were talking about the Sunday School, did they go on any outings?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    Outside Witham?

Mrs I:    No, no, we only went into the woods and had a few races. Oh no, there were no seaside trips.

Q:    Did you ever go anywhere to go to the seaside yourself when you were a child at all?

Mrs I:    Yes, Southend several times, and Clacton. Colchester, you would never have thought you were allowed there, you always thought that was military and the soldiers were around. Didn’t, no. Chelmsford was very nice.

Q:    You’d go on the train if you went to these places?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes. Always thought it was great to go on the train?

Q:    So what did you do when you went to the sea, when you went to the seaside?

Mrs I:    We never liked the water [Q: Didn’t you?] No. And my children don’t. If I used to take them, very often, we used, ‘cos it was only fourpence halfpenny to go to Maldon, we used to get the push chair and put them in, the lift at the station would take you down. Well then we used to walk right along to Beachy Hill. No, the children never liked the water, they used to say I was lucky, because there wasn’t that biting[?] them off, was there, they liked the sand.

Q:    So when you were little you liked the sand as well did you?

Mrs I:    Yes. I didn’t, no I didn’t. We used to go in the rivers, we used to take our shoes and stockings off, and go along.

Q:    So these trips to Southend that you’d made, was that with your grandma?

Mrs I:    No, that was older. [Q: When you were older?] Oh, no, there were no seaside trips.

Q:    Did some people go?

Mrs I:    No, I don’t think so, no, not until older.

Q:    So were there any, did the Church organise any other clubs, or activities or anything?

Mrs I:    No, no, not in my, no, because the Church House wasn’t built until later on [Collingwood Road].

Q:    No, so it was mainly the things at the Vicarage?

Mrs I:    Yes, it was mainly the Vicarage.

Q:    Did you actually go away for any holidays or anything?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, I did, used to go to Notley and different places, and Brentwood, I went to Brentwood to friends, spent a lot of time at Brentwood, yes, for the six weeks, because we had the six weeks. Yes, pea-picking holiday you see, it would start in June, we went back again in July, then we had what we called the blackberrying holiday, for a week.

Q:    As well?

Mrs I:    Yes. They never go blackberrying, do they? And dandelions, we used to pick baskets of dandelions, the blossom for dandelion wine, that was supposed to be good for the heart.

Q:    So did your grandma make the wine, or did you give them to other people?

Mrs I:    No, to other people that did.

Q:    Did they give you any money for them?

Mrs I:    Oh no, everything …. Oh if you went an errand, I always remember Douglas Bowyer, that would be a friend of Jimmy Chalk, he used to have a note, used to take a note down into Edie Gaymer’s, that would be Mrs Richards, into Spurge’s shop [42 Newland Street], and you’d always have twopence, I remember that.

Q:    And what did you spend it on?

Q:    Oh, liquorice, sherbets, different things. And we had a Twopenny, have you heard about Miss Luard and the Twopenny?

Mrs I:    Miss Luard was here then, was she?

Q:    Yes, yes. Oh that was a nice, lovely place. Of course they say Luard [long a] today, we used to say Luard [stressing u, only a short a], going up to the Lodge.

Q:    Was Admiral Luard alive then?

Mrs I:    Yes. He was killed. Yes, I remember him being killed in the High Street in his trap. He was Liberal, oh he was a big Liberal. And then there was Commander Luard, his son.

Q:    Was he killed in an accident, was he [the Admiral, 1910]?

Mrs I:    Yes, in the Bridge Street.

Q:    I think I remember reading that his funeral was quite a big do in the town, was it?

Mrs I:    Oh it was, yes, yes. But his sons weren’t popular in the Navy. No. They were not. Commander Luard one Christmas, he threw the sailors’, the dinner, into the sea.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Mm, I remember that. You know, you hear the tale. Oh he wasn’t. And then one son married Bessie Luard, Bessie Ingles, at the Vicarage, and that was a big time. I remember their going, dropping the little rose petals at the wedding. And I remember going to the Vicarage to see the first grandchild.

Q:    Because they still lived at the Vicarage did they?

Mrs I:    Yes, then they moved to Brentwood, they went to Brentwood Priory.

Q:    You say, Miss Luard was the one who ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, these Miss Luards, there was five or six of them. They had the Twopenny.

Q:    What do you remember about them otherwise?

Mrs I:    Oh, they were very helpful. Oh, and there was a Girls Friendly Society. We used to go to that, the Girls Friendly.

Q:    What did they do there?

Mrs I:    Well, more, religion, and just a little knitting. Something to knit and do.

Q:    When was that, was that of an evening, or the weekend?

Mrs I:    No, Sunday afternoons when it wasn’t Catechism. Sunday.

Q:    Whereabouts did they have that?

Mrs I:    The Girls Friendly?

Q:    Was that at the Vicarage?

Mrs I:    Yes, at the school.

Q:    That was for anybody that wanted to go?

Mrs I:    Wanted to go, you see.

Q:    Where did they have the Sunday School, at the ordinary, in Guithavon Street as well, was it?

Mrs I:    In their school, in your schools, in your day schools.

Q:    Was there a school in Church Street then?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    The one down near the shops, where Shelley’s is [22 Church Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes. Shelley’s. That was a school. Well we had the classes we used to go there, Confirmation classes I think, ‘cos you always came to the Parish Church, you always called it the Parish Church. And that’s when I remember Admiral Luard, the different ones, used to come with their coachmen, and the man at the back, you know, with the black and fawn uniform. You never see it now, do you?

Q:    Goodness. He was riding in the coach, was he?

Mrs I:    Yes, and you had, I don’t know what you’d call the one at the back. He’d sit at the back, big hat.

Q:    Did many people in Witham, how many people would you say had coaches of their own then?

Mrs I:    Percy Laurence, see that’s why he had the drive right down. We spent hours sitting there under those beautiful trees [The Avenue].

Q:    In the Avenue, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes. His gates were closed. We used to hide when his coach came along. [Q: It was supposed to be private, was it?] They were Sunday school teachers. Yes, very private.

Q:    But you still got in?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, we used to climb in, anywhere for a shade, didn’t you.

Q:    And before they had a car, did the doctors and the solicitors and people have coaches, or how did they get about before they had the cars?

Mrs I:    Chiefly, I don’t remember much. [Q: Of course they didn’t have far to go ….] No. I just remember Percy Brown, in Collingwood Road, you know, Collingwood House [15 Collingwood Road], I remember they had a pony and trap because of the children, but there weren’t many people. There’d be, of course the farmers would come in, wouldn’t they, with the horse and trap, you see.

Q:    They’d have things to take on the cart, I suppose, wouldn’t they?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, it was chiefly farmers, it was a farming place. Yes. They were the big people.

Q:    Did anybody have bicycles?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, all cushion tyre, they were never the tyre that you pump up, they were solid tyres.

Q:    Did children have those as well, did they?

Mrs I:    Oh no, oh no, whoo, never had a bicycle.

Q:    Didn’t you.

Mrs I:    No. And they were generally a little, no toy, cycle, nothing like that. It was dolls and dolls prams.

Q:    But grown-ups had bikes did they?

Mrs I:    Yes, not often, there weren’t many. No, there weren’t.

Q:    The roads would be a bit rough?

Mrs I:    Yes, but look at the roads, and look at the manure on the roads, for the horses. And the cows used to have to come, from the market, didn’t they, and all come through. We used to have the big, now, when Christmas was coming, they’d come with their prize cow to advertise their meat, and have all the beautiful rosettes on.

Q:    Was that the different farmers, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes.
27    Q:    Did they sell the meat, well the cattle market you told me about, they sold it then did they [Collingwood Road, later site of Labour Hall]?

Mrs I:    Yes, you’d go in the market to buy your cow and your sheep and then of course take it to the slaughterhouse. We used to go to the slaughterhouse a lot.

Q:    Where was that then?

Mrs I:    In Guithavon Street, at the back [back of.58 Newland Street].

Q:    Next to the school, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes. We used to peep through. Oh it was wicked to see the dear cows come through, and they pulled them and then the axe, oh it was horrible.

Q:    You still watched?

Mrs I:    Oh, naturally. And the pigs to slaughter, they used to put the pigs in the boiling water.

Q:    Did they, goodness? Was it noisy as well?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    And smelly, I should think?

Mrs I:    Yes it was, they made a complaint about it.

Q:    ‘Cos, you said you went to buy your cow and a pig. Did that mean people bought a cow for themselves, or you mean the butchers?

Mrs I:    Oh no, the butchers. Yes. ‘Cos my friend that’s coming today, her father was a butcher.

Q:    I see, yes. You used to tell me about, was it Cook’s, the butcher?

Mrs I:    Yes, pork butchers, that came after, yes that was later [5 Newland Street]

Q:    Who were the butchers when you were little?

Mrs I:    Barwell and Sorrell.

Q:    Barwell was still here was here? Was it, who ran the slaughterhouse?

Mrs I:    Barwell, yes, that was, yes [58 Newland Street].

Q:    Can you remember those people, the Barwells at all?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. I remember them well. Well, they were the people who you thought were just a little different.

Q:    A bit, better or anything?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, were just tradespeople, weren’t they?

Q:    Mm, but you mean, when you say different, what way were they different?

Mrs I:    Well, you looked upon the tradespeople as different to the landworkers, didn’t you? I mean that’s all it consisted of. Or railwaymen. There was nothing else to do until Crittall’s opened up [c.1920]. So of course with the tradespeople you did think you were a little different. ‘Cos my friend will often say, and I say ‘Oh don’t say it’. She says ‘Of course we’re different class’. ‘Now’ I say ‘don’t say that, say we were, they’re different’. But she will, she’ll say it now.

Continued on Tape 3

___________________________

Tape 001. Mrs Dorothy Ireland (nee Goss), sides 1 and 2

Tape 1

Mrs Ireland was born in 1894, and was interviewed on 25 November 1976. when she lived at 12 Chalks Road, Witham.

She also appears on tapes 2, 3, 7, 33, 86, 90 and 97.

For more information about her, see the the notes in the people category headed Ireland, Mrs Dorothy (Dolly), nee Goss.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

Note that these early tapes, being the first interviews I ever did, are examples of how not to do it – all my interruptions and mutterings and unclear questions! JG

The list in small text at the end is to show what happens if you try and tag all the people, places, etc. mentioned in an interview like this. In future interviews I did not do this; I just hoped that the search system would track down items mentioned in the  actual interviews. Not ideal, I’m afraid. JG.

______________________________

Side 1

Q:    You were born? Sorry, start again, you were born in 1890, 1892, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, ‘94.

Q:    ’94, that’s right. And you were married in 1923.

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Where was it you actually born? Which house were you born in?

Mrs I:    High Street.

Q:    In the High Street, is that the one at Coopers that you told me about, where the Post Office was? [now 82 Newland Street and 84 Newland Street]

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right.

Q:    So do you remember how long you were at Post Office?

Mrs I:    No, only ….

Q:    Was it just a little while?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    For a short while when you, where do you go after?

Mrs I:    Not long. Well I stayed with my grandma [i.e. Mrs Rushen, see notes at end], because I was young. I think it was in the March after I was born.

Q:    Did she live in Witham as well?

Mrs I:    No, no, they were Witham people and then they removed to White Notley. Retired at White Notley [this was her great-grandparents Goss, see notes at end].

Q:    So you went there with them, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, well the Boer War came and that upset my life.

Q:    Yes, I see, yes. So you stayed at Notley most of your …. ?

Mrs I:    No, I stayed and lived in Witham all my life, with grandma [i.e. Mrs Rushen].

Q:    Oh, I see, your grandma was in Witham, and your parents were in Notley, I see. So your grandma lived, what part of Witham did she live in?

Mrs I:    In the High Street [this was her mother and real grandparents, Goss].

Q:    At the Post Office as well?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, then they went to Devon, no, [??? sounds like Cone], and then Devon, and then on to Acton, so they were surveyors, you see.

Q:    Did you stay with them then? Others, this is where your parents, I’m with you. Your parents went to Devon?

Mrs I:    Yes, and [??? sounds like Cone].

Q:    And you stayed with your grandparents in Witham all that time, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes. All the time.

Q:    While you were at school and everything?

Mrs I:    Yes, all the time. Through the Boer War, of course. They went to Africa.

Q:    Did your parents ever come back to Witham?

Mrs I:    No, I never saw them after.

Q:    Really? Goodness. I suppose this happened to a lot of kiddies, did it?

Mrs I:    Yes, well I think there was a little bother, I think they wanted me to go, and, you know, they didn’t take me away, no, after they got me settled.

Q:    I suppose you got used to your grandma then?

Mrs I:    Oh, I did, yes, ‘cos you see, yes.

Q:    Was she a Witham person?

Mrs I:    Yes. 0h yes, they were all Witham.

Q:    So what is your maiden name, actually?

Mrs I:    Goss. And now, there’s another Goss in Witham, I’m very interested. In Forest Road. I mean, ‘cos it’s an uncommon name isn’t it?

Q:    Yes, it is really, isn’t it, yes? G O double S?

Mrs I:    Yes, they used to call me Goss china, I remember, ‘cos the china, you remember, do you? The Goss china. And I had an uncle an author, Ernest Goss.

Q:    Of course, yes, I think I’ve heard of him. So was your grandfather alive then as well, or was it just your grandma?

Mrs I:    No, just grandma.

Q:    You were the youngest, you say?

Mrs I:    No brother or sisters.

Q:    You didn’t have any brothers or sisters, no?

Mrs I:    No, the Boer War upset everything. So, you see, I’ve been in three wars, haven’t I.

Q:    So, your father was a Witham person as well, was he?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    So, you don’t remember when he was born, or how old he was when you were born or anything? I suppose you didn’t know a lot about him?

Mrs I:    No, nothing, no nothing, no, only grandma, no.

Q:    Did he run the Post Office for a bit, you say, before you were born?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, yes.

Q:    But again, if he left more or less straight away, you wouldn’t remember anything.

Mrs I:    No, no.

Q:    So when your grandma left there, who did the Post Office? Did somebody else take over?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I know who, Gallop, and that’s why I’ve always been friendly with Mrs Gallop, Mrs Wallace[?], she’s just recently died. They lived in Collingwood Road, and so she always, you know, we kept friendly. And then we were friendly of course with the Chipping Hill people, Mrs Grapes, they were at Chipping Hill Post Office [41 Chipping Hill].

Q:    So I suppose everybody knew everybody then, didn’t they?

Mrs I:    Oh gracious, oh definitely, and that’s why people don’t, some people don’t like to, because you remember, you see, you know, they don’t just like it, you to be remembered, so we never go into the, their history. But of course, what did Witham consist of? I mean it was people, railway people, or agricultural workers, wasn’t it, until 1914 came? The first, I wasn’t prejudiced, but a good many were, course it was the glove factory that spoilt Witham first. And then of course it was good in 1914 [actually a bit later] when Crittall opened it for the workers [Braintree Road]. That was great, wasn’t it , that spoilt ….

Q:    That was that soon was it?

Mrs I:    That spoilt. Well I don’t say it did, but you know, these people that want things just their own way. But it created work, didn’t it?

Q:    Yes, it made a big change, I suppose, didn’t it? Where did the people all live that came to work there, or were they already Witham people mostly?

Mrs I:    People, well of course, this Witham [???] wasn’t it, you see, and then the Council built Cressing Road, all those Council houses, immediately Crittall opened his place.

Q:    But I suppose the glove factory they were mostly Witham people, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes, that spoilt it. Well they had a big, yes, they had a big house first of all opposite the railway station [13 Albert Road and 14 Albert Road], and then they built – Pinkham [factory, 1 Chipping Hill, since demolished to build Templemeads flats]. Course Pinkham was a big man, course there was no Labour, it was Liberals, and he was the Liberal agent, oh, he was a big man, oh he was. I always remember they had, when the elections were, the big loaf and the small loaf, on the scale, and the ladder, and we used to go to see the man[?] climb, in the town, to see how they were climbing. And we always had the polls declared at the Public Hall in Collingwood Road. I remember being late for school once when Bethell got in [In 1906 Thomas Robert Bethell, was elected Liberal Member of Parliament for Maldon (which included Witham). He defeated Charlie Strutt of Blunts Hall, Member of Parliament for Maldon 1895-1906]. Course the Honorable Strutt, we had a nice little poem about the Honourable Strutt.

Q:    Yes, I think I remember reading about, did you get, he lost, didn’t he, one time, and they were all upset?

Mrs I:    Yes, well, yes when Bethel, we used to say ‘Goodbye Charlie Strutt’ [laugh].

Q:    Do you think, were a lot of people upset by it, or didn’t they think about it much?

Mrs I:    Yes well Liberals of course, there were no, no Conservatives then, you didn’t say Tory was there? I mean it was Liberal. You see that’s why we can’t understand, we say, ‘Oh, we’re Liberals’. You see you were either one thing or the other. And I don’t remember first of all Labour coming in. I remember with Driberg, there was a Janis and he was abroad, and that’s why Driberg stepped in [Tom Driberg, Member of Parliament for Maldon 1942-55]. But the Labour people wouldn’t vote for Driberg, you know, he was Independent, was the Tories who got Driberg in, yes. Well, you see, they were loyal, weren’t they, to Mr Janis, being abroad, fighting for the War. Oh no, the Tories, and they thought they were winning him, didn’t they?

Q:    Can you remember the one when Mr Strutt, was that, would that be about 1906, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Before that I suppose it was mostly Conservative, was it, that was why you had such a shock?

Mrs I:    Yes, we had Fortescue Flannery, ‘flannelfoot’, we called him, as children [Fortescue Flannery, Member of Parliament for Maldon, 1918-22].

Q:    Did you? I suppose it was quite a big do when there was an election?

Mrs I:    Oh, good, when Strutt, of course we were[?] pleased, because we knew our people were all Liberals, we used to have the big, at Notley we had all the big placards out, oh there was the dunkers[?] and the torchlight procession, from Witham station to Blunts Hall, yes, you don’t now do you?

Q:    That was all his people going then, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes. Well, there weren’t many Tories, were there? I mean, working class.

Q:    What, Witham, was it mostly?

Mrs I:    Definitely. Yes ….

Q:    He was an MP for a while, wasn’t he, so you must have had some Tories?

Mrs I:    Well, you know, the agricultural people, that’s why, isn’t it. It’s the moneyed people that vote them in. But Mr Pinkham was a big man [Liberal, owner of Witham’s Glove factory].

Q:    Did he live in Witham?

Mrs I:    Yes, in Collingwood Road, got his children here still. Oh yes, we were always interested in this, the children are not today, are they?

Q:    No, I suppose it was more exciting then, wasn’t it?

Mrs I:    Well, there was nothing else, was there, to interest yourself?

Q:    Can you remember what other sorts of things you did, that made a bit of a change, like celebrations and things like that?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Oh yes, we had, we used to have the trips, schoolchildren, in my children’s time, that’s fifty years, here was a steam engine, you always had a steam engine for the tea parties, and at the Vicarage [now the Old Vicarage, Chipping Hill]. There was just the Co-op parties, and the school trips, Sunday school, and the day schools.

Q:    So that was when you were school? Did they have them at the Vicarage?

Mrs I:    Yes. There were swings, the steam engine to make your tea, and just the swings, and then we came out the back way, you know where the bridge is, the water bridge, the mill [Chipping Hill bridge, and 1 Powershall End], we came out there, and we’d have the bun, as we came, not an orange just a big bun. I always remember that.

Q:    So who used to run that?

Mrs I:    The vicar, the school, the Sunday school. That was good.

Q:    Did you go to Sunday school as well, then?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, there was nothing else to do, Church four times.

Q:    Really! I remember you saying to went to school when you were two and a half.

Mrs I:    Yes, I did.

Q:    Can you remember, I suppose everybody did that, did they?

Mrs I:    Yes, you see, January came, and you see, my birthday came, and we went in the summer, the summer time, and I wasn’t three until the December. I’ll always remember the first day.

Q:    Tell me about that then?

Mrs I:    I think I cried.

Q:    I’m not surprised when you were two and a half.

Mrs I:    I think I did, but I think I wanted to go, you know with friends, you know, the others go, ‘cos there were no schools, we had a school by the, well that now is the Lodge, you know the Conservatives have got it for little, at the Grove, well there was a school there, and that was twopence a week you paid, Mrs Blackie kept that [Avenue Lodge, Collingwood Road].

Q:    That was actually at the Lodge, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Which one did you go to?

Mrs I:    I went to Guithavon Street.  I liked that, it was nice [National Schools, since demolished, and used for car park]

Q:    What did you do there?

Mrs I:    Well, we had slates and pencils first, and oh, we thought it was marvellous to use a pencil, and then when it came to ink, we had to get into standard 4 for ink. But the slates, you know, they had the alphabet round, the children don’t learn the alphabet now, do they?

Q:    Not quite the same, no, they don’t. So you had it written on already, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, it was round your slates. And then another thing was the timetables, we used to go early to school, and then while you were waiting for nine o’clock for it all to happen, well you did your tables. But they don’t, I know by my children, they don’t do the tables.

Q:    So that was before the teacher came even, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes. And you’d do this, there was no gym, we used to do hands up, forward, backward, touch your knees, and clap, but, I mean, there was no gym.

Q:    Were there quite a lot of children, there wouldn’t be a lot of room, probably, was there?

Mrs I:    No. No, of course, we used to love the walk, and, you know, we used to love, Chipping Hill was the nicest part.

Q:    When went you to school, you still lived in the High Street, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes [probably Chipping Hill, in fact]

Q:    What did you do for your dinner, then?

Mrs I:    Oh, oh, never school dinners. Yes, and the school was from 12 until 2, wasn’t it.

Q:    Oh, I see, what, the dinner, you mean?

Mrs I:    The dinner hour was two hours. ‘Cos I remember running home fast to see the railway accident, you know, the express, Cromer express. That was in 1901 [actually 1905].

Q:    So, that was when you were school, was it? So what did you do, all come out of school?

Mrs I:    Yes, and ran, cos it was interesting, it was history, wasn’t it, everyone was interested, didn’t know who was killed or, oh I can remember seeing the pails, and you know, the spades, and the dear children, I remember seeing it all.

Q:    Did that happen during the daytime, did it?

Mrs I:    Yes. About 11.

Q:    Did they let you out of the school, or did you have to wait till school had finished?

Mrs I:    No, we came out.

Q:    At dinner time?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, 12, you see. And then we didn’t go back to school in the afternoon, we were naughty.

Q:    Did you often do that?

Mrs I:    Very.

Q:    Did you?

Mrs I:    We would be late[?] No, they weren’t severe, no, it was happy, I think you were, oh, it was so different.

Q:    What sort of things did you learn apart from the alphabet and tables?

Mrs I:    We didn’t get to algebra until I was in ex-seventh, because I stayed till I was sixteen.

Q:    Did you really?

Mrs I:    Ex-seventh. But you see, you lose your friends, because when they got to standard 4 at twelve they took a Labour exam, and then they could go to work, they could leave, but you had to be in standard 4 before you took the exam. But I stayed on, I was very small.

Q:    Perhaps you were clever too, were you?

Mrs I:    I don’t know, I think I was a chatterbox. And always the one with the long hair, I always got into trouble.

Q:    Did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, because I had this long hair. They used to say ‘The one with that long hair’.

Q:    Can you remember the teachers at all?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    Who were they?

Mrs I:    Miss Peake, Miss Goodman, and Miss Murrells, and she kept a school after, didn’t she?

Q:    I think so, I’ve heard of her.

Mrs I:    Yes, she taught, that’s why she was interested in my children, cos she taught me.

Q:    What were they like, Miss Peake, for instance?

Mrs I:    Oh, she, they lived at the school house, there were three sisters, strangely enough. Miss Peake, the elder one, was the governess, and then there was the pupil teacher, she came to live in Church Street, and the other one was the infant teacher. ‘Cos the big classroom was there, and just a doorway for the infants.

Q:    I see, yes. So you stayed, the infants were separate?

Mrs I:    Yes, just a doorway.

Q:    And then the girls separate, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes. And I always remember when I was in the infants, I don’t know what it was I recited, but I couldn’t say the words properly, so they took me into the big girls, and I always remember standing on the desk, ‘Sweeping through the gates of the great Jeruseljum’, I couldn’t say Jerus. I always remember that.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    And you see I wasn’t seven. There’s lots of ….

Q:    You did a lot of learning things like that, did you, rhymes and that?

Mrs I:    Yes. Well now they don’t do it, do they? My children did. They never have a book and a pencil, do they?

Q:    Not quite the same, do they, no.

Mrs I:    And what did you do in the evenings?

Q:    What did you do?

Mrs I:    I mean, you had the slate and a pencil.

Q:    You took it home with you, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, you all went together.

Q:    What did you do when you got home? What time did school finish, about?

Mrs I:    Now, quarter to four in the winter time, for the children that lived a long distance. They walked to school, didn’t they? Right from Dancing Dicks, from Blunts Hall. Then they stayed to dinner, they brought their own sandwiches.

Q:    They just sat in the school did they?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    I suppose they had to really, didn’t they?

Mrs I:    So then, you see, you had that two hours, from twelve until two, well you’d go back early, wouldn’t you, to be with your children.

Q:    To play, yes. Your grandma would be at home, then, I suppose, when you went back?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, oh yes.

Q:    What sort of meal would you have then?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, you’d have a cooked. Big rice puddings, and apples, you know, did it in syrup and cut the tops out. That was altogether different. And there was liver and, but, you never hear of a bullock’s heart, sheep’s head and pluck, do you?

Q:    Was there anybody else in the house with your grandma, and you?

Mrs I:    Yes, the children would come in.

Q:    Was there anybody else living there?

Mrs I:    Friends. No.

Q:    So she was mainly cooking for you?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right.

Q:    But she still did all these things, did she?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes.

Q:    Did she do all the work herself?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did she have any help or anything?

Mrs I:    No, because she used to go out to do nursing.

Q:    Did she, and she still managed to cook your dinner?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, of course it was so different. It was more in the night to help the doctors, childbirth.

Q:    I see, she was a sort of midwife?

Mrs I:    Because I used to go, I remember, once or twice, if there were children, then you’d meet them.

Q:    So what, she went all over Witham, did she?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Just when she was called?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. The doctors used to say, that’s why they fussed. Of course I miss the doctors, I miss the three Gimson doctors, ‘cos I knew Doctor Ted, and Doctor Karl, and then I …. Someone, who was it the other day, said to me, ‘Surely you don’t remember their father?’, oh, it was Dr Denholm’s daughter, she said ‘Oh, of course’, she said ‘you remember Doctor Ted’. I said ‘Oh yes, and your father’, he was Doctor Ted’s best friend, through the war, they were friends, he came to Witham, and I said ‘Yes, and Doctor Karl’. Now, they used to say ‘Doctor Karl goes to the tradespeople, and Doctor Ted goes to the poor people’. So if you had Doctor Ted, you were poor. Oh, it was a snobbish place.

Q:    Was it?

Mrs I:    And then I said to her ‘Yes, and Doctor Carwardine Gimson’. She said ‘You certainly don’t?’. ‘Yes’, I said.

Q:    That was their father, wasn’t it [Doctor William Gimson Gimson]?

Mrs I:    The father of the doctors. And I said ‘Yes’. Well, as children, he was in a chair, a bath chair, and I always remember he had a big cloak, with a huge hood, and a pipe, and that was Doctor Carwardine Gimson. And she, oh, she was very interested in that.

Q:    ‘Cos he must have been quite old then?

Mrs I:    Yes, well, you’d got nothing else to interest yourself in. And Captain Abrey, did you see that, when they were talking about Dorothy Sayers?

Q:    Yes, he lived there didn’t he? [Shafto Abrey, 26 Newland Street]

Mrs I:    Gracious, that all came back to me with the election. You never saw Captain Abrey at the election time! He bowed, he’d take off his hat and he’d bow, and he’d say ‘Now, you won’t forget me, will you?’, that was Captain Abrey.

Q:    Really? At election time, was it? What did he stand for?

Mrs I:    Oh, in the County , Urban, District Urban.

Q:    The Urban District?

Mrs I:    Of course it was very small, just had that little place where the electric light, that was our, you remember the electric light shop in Collingwood Road? Well, that was our Urban District Council’s office [small building since demolished to form part of the site of the Health Authority building].

Q:    It’s pulled down now, you mean, yes?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. And we don’t remember, it was, I remember it was Perkins, lived opposite, the house is still there, he was the surveyor. I remember Maisie. Now, when Maisie comes she’ll pop to see me. You see our old, there’s not many.

Q:    When I suppose if you’re, well there can’t be many left your age?

Mrs I:    The Croxalls, the Croxalls are here, aren’t they, at the gas managers in Mill Lane [since demolished to form part of the Mill Lane car park, corner of Newland Street]. I mean it was an interesting. I know when you meet the Miss Croxalls and the different ones I know they keep saying ‘Oh, it’s not Witham, our poor old Witham’. Well, I said ‘We are fortunate to still be living in it, aren’t we?’.

Q:    I suppose you’ve got the best of both really, ‘cos you’ve got your friends?

Mrs I:    Yes. I haven’t got many.

Q:    So, when you say it was a snobbish place, how did you notice that?

Mrs I:    Oh, it was.

Q:    How did that affect you when you were little?

Mrs I:    Oh at school, at school, they used to say ‘Oh, she’s a lady’s daughter’.

Q:    Really? They did have ladies’ daughters at Guithavon Street, did they?

Mrs I:    ‘Oh, she’s a lady’s daughter!’ [laughing]

Q:    What sort of people were ladies’ daughters?

Mrs I:    Just tradespeople.

Q:    Really? That’s interesting.

Mrs I:    Yes. That’s all it consisted of, didn’t it?

Q:    Can you remember any of them? Who were the ladies and gentlemen then, can you remember?

Mrs I:    Oh, well, Laurence, Percy Laurence, wasn’t he, at the Grove. Well then there was the Honourable Strutt, and then there were the solicitors, Derek Bright, we’ve still got some left, and then the Bawtrees have gone, they were solicitors again, they were a nice family, and the Rounds, they were more the army people, they were Major. And then there were three doctors, you know separate, not in just one group of doctors. That’s all Witham consisted of.

Q:    The shopkeepers and things, would you regard them as ladies?

Mrs I:    No, tradespeople.

Q:    So they were different again? So, would they get treated differently at school, do you think?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no, no, it’s only the children’d be a bit jealous. ‘Cos of course, they were poor. Oh, truthfully they were poor.

Q:    The other children, yes?

Mrs I:    Oh they were, oh it was poor, very. Oh, when I think, when I used to collect the rents and they used to say ‘Can’t give you the rent this week, because we’ve had to buy the children, the shoes.’

Q:    That was when you were grown-up?

Mrs I:    Yes. And the old gentleman that worked for the Honourable Strutt, the harvest time, his rent was two pounds twelve in a year, a shilling a week, and he asked for the two shillings back. Oh it was. Those houses in Church Street were only, some were only a shilling.

Q:    What sort of jobs did the poor people do?

Mrs I:    Well, they all left Witham and went to service, you see.

Q:    I see, yes, their children.

Mrs I:    There was nothing. And then the glove factory opened, and I’m afraid I’ve said, I haven’t meant it intentionally, but I know I said next door something about ‘Oh well, they’re only factory girls’. You know I didn’t mean it. And of course I didn’t realise they were, you don’t, do you?

Q:    So that was people that lived near you?

Mrs I:    Yes, next door, when she came [Mrs Elsie Hammond, 11 Chalks Road], I said, she said something, and I said ‘Well, they were factory girls, weren’t they’, and I should have said ‘Worked at the glove factory’. I didn’t think, did I?

Q:    Did she work there? [Mrs I nodded]. I see, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh, the Keebles, they were the head of the factory. Well, there was nothing else until, that was the first factory that spoilt, well, they say spoilt Witham, ‘cos I have to say what the old timers say.

Q:    Did you think so at the time, then, at the time?

Mrs I:    No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t, I thought it was nice, I thought I liked the company. The only thing is, I, oh, we had the Tuppenny, that was the only thing, you know there was nowhere to go. Whitehall cinema was the college, that was the Whitehall college for boys, just boys, that was a nice college [18 Newland Street].

Q:    So what sort of people went there?

Mrs I:    Oh, people, strangers, not Witham people, oh yes. Oh they, we used to watch them at Church, you know, when they came, it was interesting.

Q:    So you remember you told me about the little school at the Lodge. Were there any other schools like that when you were little?

Mrs I:    Yes, one in Braintree Road, a Miss Chapman had that, where the little fruit shop is, do you remember Braintree Road? [probably 10 Braintree Road or possibly 13 Braintree Road], well Annie Chapman had that, and yes, there was that little private school. Of course Miss Murrells was, well just my children’s time, she opened one didn’t she? Yes, in the High Street. I don’t remember that. I remember in my young time it was twopence a week to go to Miss Blackie’s school, that was where I told you at Avenue Lodge.

Q:    What sort of kids went to those?

Mrs I:    Well, I think there was something, you know, where they didn’t mix, where you didn’t quite mix, weren’t quite bright, and I think you know parents, just put them.

Q:    Did you have to pay for Guithavon Street?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no, no. No, that was nice. We liked Guithavon Street, I think it was very nice. And Miss Gentry was there for years, donkeys’ years, she taught me and taught, that’s when you know, when you go, they’re pupil teachers, you see, and then they come up to be heads, don’t they.

Q:    So they were children at the school first?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    So how many teachers would there be at the school altogether at any one time? [Mrs I: Well, there would be ….] They were mostly pupil teachers were they?

Mrs I:    No, from, the head would take from 4, so she’d have 4,5,6, 7 and ex-seven. And then there would be a teacher for standard 3 and standard 4, and then in the classroom that would be class 1 and class 2.

Q:    I see, and that was with the teacher, the headteacher?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, they didn’t have one for each class. The head took from 4, from the 4 always up.

Q:    Did many people come in from outside sometimes to see you at school?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, the governors, they all came in, and the Vicar, we always used to have to stand up and bow and scrape.

Q:    [Laughs] Did they come a lot, did they?

Mrs I:    Well, about once a week, I should imagine, to get you to Church. And all the holy weeks we used to go to Church at nine o’clock.

Q:    In school time?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Who was the Vicar then?

Mrs I:    Canon Ingles.

Q:    Can you remember much about him?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh he was great, and their daughters, seven daughters, and they all taught, oh yes, they were nice.

Q:    You liked them, did you?

Mrs I:    I did. I don’t remember Dean Bramston, that was just before Canon Ingles, but I remember elderly people speaking of, specially the dear old lady next door, she was 98, and we used to love to go for her to tell us.

Q:    That was next to you, in the High Street?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. [actually probably in Chalks Road, Miss Kidd]. And she used to, and you knew that there was a castle, did you? Down at Spring Lodge.

Q:    Oh, was there?

Mrs I:    Beautiful, yes, and she told us it was burnt down, and the lady came out, you know in her lovely robes and ran to the stream at the bottom, so of course as children, we used to want to see, and she said she appeared at night, and we wanted to see this ghost. And she told Mr Pendle, do you remember, no, you wouldn’t remember Pendle keeping the little shop in Church Street [48 Church Street], but I suppose you’ve heard of Pendle, and then he took the Post Office. Well, of course there were no houses there at Powershall End and Miss Kidd, she told Mr
[After end of tape:
Mr Pendle planned to build house at Powershall End and Miss Kidd told him he shouldn’t because of the ghost and that he would hear rustling. He built it and as a joke he called it Rustingtons [21 Powershall End].
Would get water from the spring at Powershall End if not well].

Side 2

Mrs I:    …. no trouble.

Q:    What sort of things did they do for you?

Mrs I:    Oh, can I tell you all the, we had that over last Christmas. Can I tell you all the strange little things they did? The old nurses I’m speaking about, not the professional nurses but the old nurses. [Q: Like your grandma?]. I don’t think now, I can’t, I don’t there’s any left. Mrs Kentfield, well they used to, you know to doctor yourself, the doctors didn’t tell you to do it, they always said your stocking, as you’d had it on your foot, your stocking you put round your neck. Now wouldn’t, what ever would they say today? Now ask your question, with all this hygiene, what would they think, but that was supposed to be a cure. Wadding in your ear, I always remember having wadding, and a little, no cotton wool, we called it wadding, the cotton wool, and we used to put a little oil, just in the ear. But I always remember the throat, they used to say yes, pop it round at night, and it’ll be better in the morning.

Q:    Was it? [laughs]

Mrs I:    [Laughs] I think so. But we had a flannel, a red flannel, I remember, used to have a little red flannel band round. Oh, and when the fevers were on, we used to have a little bag round our neck, and it would have camphor in it, and that was typhoid fever, there was a lot in Witham, typhoid, yes, right into the meadows far away, Pondholton, that where the camps were.

Q:    Oh I see, what they took, where the isolation ….?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. And I always remember this camphor. And I always remember with a cough we had the chemist’s shop, now what’s there now, right on the corner of the High Street, steps to go to it [64 Newland Street].

Q:    The television, near Farthings?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, that’s the one, the steps. And we used to have Spanish liquorice, it used to be very hard, and we used to have a wee piece of that.

Q:    What, at the chemist?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    What was that to do?

Mrs I:    That was for the cough. Spanish liquorice, I remember that.

Q:    Did you ever have to have the doctor to you with your throat or did you always ….?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh I went to, I went into the hospital for, tonsils, and adenoids, oh I think I was eleven, eleven or, I don’t, I think it was eleven for tonsils, I went to Chelmsford hospital.

Q:    That would be quite a big thing in those days?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I loved it in there.

Q:    Did you [laughs]?

Mrs I:    They made a fuss. I don’t know why I went in the big ward, and, and there was an elderly lady in there, and I was writing her letters, that was the time I was at school, ‘cos I remember Miss Peake telling the children how, you know, helpful I was, to write Mrs Chalk’s letters.

Q:    That’s Mrs Chalk, was she, where did Mrs Chalk come from?

Mrs I:    Church Street, to do with Mrs Chalk in my road.

Q:    Of course there were a lot of Chalks weren’t there?

Mrs I:    Well, Jimmy Chalk is now coming, and we must go to this bellringing, ‘cos Jimmy Chalk is coming, that was his mother [Q: Oh is he?]. He’s been staying here a fortnight, and he said yes I always remember when I visited my mother, seeing you in the bed. Because I think I was in that ward because I think there was something after the operation was clipped at the back.

Q:    I see. Were you all with, in, with all the older people as well in the same ward?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. And I was just at that end, I think that was why, oh, the doctors came, they used to make a fuss. They used to say ‘Oh, we’ve got Dolly here, would you believe it!’. And they did, and when I had my babies in the Bungalow they always came [46 Collingwood Road].

Q:    I suppose they knew you with your grandma?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh they used to say.

Q:    So which doctor did you see, any of them, I suppose?

Mrs I:    I was fortunate, I didn’t have the doctor for either of my babies.

Q:    Didn’t you?

Mrs I:    No, I was very fortunate.

Q:    Just the nurses?

Mrs I:    I just walked, yes, went in. I was very fortunate.

Q:    How many children have you’ve got then, is it three? [Mrs I: Three] I thought so.

Mrs I:    Yes. Got the boy. I think, I only wish, I only wish that I’d had another boy, because, you see, there was seven years, and ‘You mustn’t come in our bedroom’, and ‘You can’t come into the lavatory’, and he used to say ‘Oh Mum, I wish I’d got a brother’. I often thought, you know, and I do now. They need, I think a boy needs a brother more than the girls need a mother. Yes, because you see you can’t talk to the boy like you do the girls, do you, and the fathers haven’t got patience have they. Well unfortunately, my husband was always away travelling, you see, that’s why they had a good time.

Q:    What did he used to do?

Mrs I:    In the power houses, he was an engineer, that’s why Clive, Clive didn’t want this, he wanted to be a schoolmaster. Oh, he was disappointed, but at school everyone said, the practical side, you see. The children were more maths, the girls were more maths than science, you see, but the boy was practical, and that was a pity, and when the eleven-plus exam came, I went to see Miss Welland, and she said to me ‘I think you’re a sensible mother’, she said, ‘because we’ve noticed it, his hands’. He, he never liked it, so he went to Technical, he didn’t go to the High School at Braintree with the girls, went to Technical. And then they told him when he went to, it was Crompton’s then, Colonel Crompton, and they told him then, they said ‘We’ll give you no privileges just because of your father, but you must work hard’, and he did, oh he did. And he, you know, so, I don’t think he regrets it now, ‘cos I think industry is the chief thing. But I think he thought about the holidays, and before, and it’s awkward, you know, because he’ll come home, that’s why we’re not on the phone. Don’t think it’s because we’re unprivate[?], you know, cheating. But, you see he’d go to Loughborough, you see, ‘cos Chelmsford office has closed, it’s Hawker Syddeley’s, well it’s Loughborough, but he was fortunate, being the switch-gear department, he was kept on in London Road, Hawker Syddeley’s offices. Well then, he’ll go, if he goes in the morning he knows he’s going to Loughborough, or he knows he’s going to London, but on that road it’s been terrible, I mean, he’d just come home from Loughborough, late at night, you know, the trains, there’d be this phone call, and off he’d have to go to Scotland. Couldn’t have that, could you? That’s why we’re not on the phone.

Q:    When did you move into those houses over there, yourself, in Chalks Road?

Mrs I:    Fifty-three years. Because we couldn’t get, you couldn’t get a house, could you?

Q:    That was when you were first married?

Mrs I:    And the house was vacant you see, so we were lucky, and we went, and we’ve stayed. I like it, it’s roomy, and, sometimes I feel I’d like a different one, and I say to the boy ‘You haven’t got your garage’, and he says ‘Well, I like it, I’m happy’, but, no, I’ve never wanted to move. Sometimes I feel I’d like a bungalow and move, but I don’t think I should. I know all the people and used to go into all the houses. You see, and you get used to the people, don’t you? But I never, I’m a bad visit, I never visit, and I never run in and out houses, I don’t do that. But I like to meet my people. If I didn’t go out, you see. I like to meet them.

Q:    So then your husband used to travel around a lot, so you ….?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh yes.

Q:    You said he was a stranger when you met him, did you.

Mrs I:    Yes through, during the War, he was at Shotley in Ipswich, searchlights, you see, he was Royal Engineers, through Colonel Crompton, you see, when they worked at Crompton’s you joined his regiment, didn’t you, and he was called up first day of the War, on the searchlights [First World War]. Now, he was allowed into Witham, but he wasn’t allowed into Chelmsford, just that nine-mile limit. So of course he’d come, he was on the searchlights.

Q:    He’d come just on leave?

Mrs I:    Yes, and that’s when I met him at his auntie’s, you see.

Q:    So who was his auntie? She was a Witham person, was she?

Mrs I:    Yes, Mrs Thompson, they’re not here now, not the coalman Thompson. They were Irelands, you see, and that’s when I met my husband, and we couldn’t marry early ‘cos the War, you see, could you? He stayed all through the war. And the house, I was collecting the rents, and the house was vacant, and I had it, and I’ve never, well I think why he travelled so much, of course another reason like Clive, we should have gone to Chelmsford, that’s where we should have gone, and that’s where we spent our time mostly. But with Marie, with the elder one, well, I used to go to Scotland with him, six weeks, you see, because they’d have the hotel and the room, and you could put up one child, but unfortunately when we’d number two, that didn’t. So we really had good times, you see, we used to share, you see, the firm were paying for the hotel, so we really had good times. And they could pop a baby in a cot. Yes, we had good times, we’ve been, and in London at East End, that’s why I know Silvertown, when the power station was built there we were there six weeks, and all the dock land.

Q:    That’s interesting, yes. So he always did that job, did he?

Mrs I:    Always did it, yes. And I enjoyed it.

Q:    Was he always at Crompton’s?

Mrs I:    Yes, now you see Crompton’s, it’s Hawker Syddeley now, isn’t it? But it’s not at Chelmsford, it’s at Loughborough, but there is a Crompton at the Witham office here. That’s called Cromptons, but it’s Hawker Syddeley really.

Q:    Would you like a cup of tea now?

Mrs I:    Oh no, thank you.

Q:    Are you sure?

Mrs I:    Yes, thank you.

Q:    Are you quite sure?

Mrs I:    Yes. No, no I keep to my usual, yes, that’s right.

Q:    You want to be getting on a bit now?

Mrs I:    No. Is there are any other little ….?

Q:    Well ….
[gap?]

Mrs I:    …field.

Q:    Was that on the Bell Field [site of Chipping Hill infants school, Church Street, and field now behind it]?

Mrs I:    Yes, we just had the flag staff, and just the shed, for the sports, and just a see-saw at the top of the hill, so why all the fuss, why don’t they pop it out into the school and let it be a playing field.

Q:    How did you get into it then?

Mrs I:    The gateway.

Q:    From White Horse Lane?

Mrs I:    No, Braintree Road. There was a little gate, iron gate at Cullen’s [corner of White Horse Lane and Braintree Road], and the iron gates where they are now, permanent for the school [Church Street].

Q:    The ones down there, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    What was there when, you know you said the school wasn’t there then? [Mrs I: No]. What was there then? Just the field?

Mrs I:    Yes, just the meadows, you see. Yes, well that was the playing field, and the Spring Lodge, the castle I’ve told you that, haven’t I, and the grass and the trees. And the cattle market, course that was interesting [Collingwood Road, later site of Labour Hall].

Q:    Yes, that must have been, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, and the corn exchange, course we used to love to take the children round, they wouldn’t see a cow otherwise.

Q:    No, that’s true.

Mrs I:    Oh I did miss, I was annoyed over the building of this road [Chalks Road, i.e. houses on north side], because I popped the children to the bedroom window, I’ve had my frame, wood frame. Well they spent hours watching the pigs and the cows and the sheep in this, didn’t they? And when they’d gone home to milk, I’d pop them through the hedge and they’d pick the daisies and make the daisy chains.

Q:    [Laughs] That’s Cocks farm, was it?

Mrs I:    Oh, beautiful up there, on that corner [north-west corner of Braintree Road and Chalks Road]. We used to go there to get the milk and the little pat of butter.

Q:    Really? What, every day I suppose?

Mrs I:    Yes. Now we went to Abbotts to the, you know, on the hill, by the bottom of Chipping Hill [55 Chipping Hill].  [Q: Yes] That’s where we went to get the milk, but this was at the first in my young time, then Brown, farmer Brown came, and the boy used to come round with the pail. The man stopped me the other day and said ‘Do you recognise me?’. And I said ‘Oh, you’re a Witham man, aren’t you?’ He said ‘Do you remember me coming round with the milk?’. He said ‘We used to pop a hand in’, ‘cos they used to have a, you know, a little scoop for a half a pint or a pint of milk, never a bottle, and if the scoop dropped in, in would go their hand [laughs]. What would the hygiene people think? Oh I said ‘Now well you’ve come back to Witham then’. He said ‘Yes, I’m staying here.’ And he said farmer Brown. Well that was beautiful. Oh, and on the Chipping Hill, we had Chipping Hill fair, there was a fair there on the hill, fifth of June, I always remember, that’s what I put down.

Q:    What did they used to then?

Mrs I:    Little roundabouts, yes, swings, I remember that, and I remember the barrel of tar, Guy Fawkes night, we always had a barrel of tar on Chipping Hill.

Q:    On Chipping Hill, did you?

Mrs I:    Yes, so I mean it’s ever so nice. The old, old pump, then I told you about the old pump, didn’t I? And Blyth’s mill, that was another interesting part [the Old Mill House, Guithavon Valley]

Q:    Oh, I know, yes, down in Mill Lane.

Mrs I:    Well, they used to grind the flour there, grind the corn, the flour, we used to see the water mill.

Q:    The actual water mill was still working, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes, we played hours in those meadows, to pick the grass and then get it round and make cows’ feet. You had to do that sort of thing, there was nothing else to do.

Q:    I remember you telling me about hop-scotch, did you play other games?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, yes, that was very nice. Well we had little hoops, didn’t we, little wooden hoops, at the basket makers in Guithavon Street, we used to have a little penny wooden hoop, and a wooden stick, and the boys had a iron hoop with a glider. And then the skipping, there’s no skipping ropes, is there?

Q:    Not many, no.

Mrs I:    And we used to have the rope across from one side the road to the other and skip along, well there was no traffic.

Q:    I suppose not. That was in the High Street, even. Lovely.

Mrs I:    Yes, and come round the back roads. And then the tops, you never see a spinning top, do you? Unfortunately we used to smash the windows if we had the flying tops.

Q:    So where did you used to get those from, some from the basket makers, you said, the hoops?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    Can you remember his name?

Mrs I:    Yes, Smith, the basket maker.

Q:    That was just on the corner, near the High Street, I remember reading about …. [behind 70 Newland Street?]

Mrs I:    Yes, near the school, yes, yes.

Q:    ‘Cos I remember Mr Godfrey next door telling me they had to go and get the canes from there, can you remember that?

Mrs I:    Yes, he’d remember. Oh, Mr Godfrey, course he’d remember, oh he’d remember old Cranfield, wouldn’t he. Do you know what the boys did, they used to soap their hand if they knew they were going to have the cane, or an onion, and it didn’t hurt.

Q:    Oh really?

Mrs I:    Our teacher had a ruler, she always tapped you with the ruler.

Q:    ‘Cos they didn’t hit the girls quite the same, perhaps, no?

Mrs I:    No. Oh no, they used to cane the boys. Course the boys was next to our school, we used to pop over.

Q:    I was going to say, did you have much to do with the boys school, did you go there a lot?

Mrs I:    Yes, there was only the wall to divide?

Q:    Were the playgrounds separate?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, the lavatories divided, you see, and then there was a big high wall.

Q:    So would you go, you’d still see, when you say you’d pop over, was that at play time, or dinner time?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, oh play time.

Q:    Were you allowed to go into there?

Mrs I:    Oh no, [Q: You were not supposed to?} no, no. But we used to love that. And then we used to have apple race, the apples used to be on the pavement because Green, the greengrocers, all their beautiful orchards were at the back of our school.

Q:    Oh, I know, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, beautiful, and Cranfield was very good, he used to put the apples on the path, and then we used to be the opposite side and scramble.

Q:    I see, what, the opposite side of the road?

Mrs I:    Yes, the road, the school.

Q:    Was that very often, or just when there was apples?

Mrs I:    Oh, when the apples were around, yes.

Q:    Did Mrs Cranfield teach as well?

Mrs I:    No, [Q: It was just him?] no, Cranfield. And we used to go through if we had a graze, or if we did anything, we’d go through, because you didn’t come into the road to go to the boys, there was two doors, doorways for the girls to pop through.

Q:    Yes, I see.

Mrs I:    But the boys weren’t allowed, you know the pupils weren’t allowed, only the teachers, and also the Infants school, you know they were all joined. Well, there wasn’t any people, were they?

Q:    I suppose not really, no. Was the Council school going then as well?

Mrs I:    Oh we didn’t go, yes that was Maldon Road. [hushed] Terrible place. Down Maldon Road. Trafalgar Square, oh.

Q:    What sort of people were there there, then?

Mrs I:    Oh, horrible.

Q:    Did you, so you didn’t have much to ….?

Mrs I:    Well with fighting and bad language. Oh you mustn’t go there.

Q:    Really, you weren’t allowed to go down there, you mean?

Mrs I:    No, no, after, after this little corner, this was ‘Little Hell’, Church Street, ‘Little Hell’ [Church Street, above corner with Chalks Road].

Q:    Was it, so you weren’t allowed up here either?

Mrs I:    No. Miss Blyth opened a mission, to convert the people, did no good. Drinking, I mean, it was, beer was only penny a pint, was it?

Q:    I see. So really that was sort of down Maldon Road and up here? Were there any other parts like that?

Mrs I:    No, Maldon Road and this part.

Q:    And what, you just kept away, didn’t have much to do with them? [Mrs I shook head]. So what, they went to the Maldon Road school did they, mostly?

Mrs I:    Well, it was chiefly, I think, the Chapel people, more or less, we called it the Board School, not Council, the Board School, and ours was Church of England.

Q:    Was that Maldon Road one at the same place as it is now, or was there another one then, another school?

Mrs I:    It’s still there, what are they using it for?

Q:    Was it in the same place?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    It’s the Community Centre now, I think [later Parkside Youth Centre, corner of roundabout]

Mrs I:    That’s right. That’s why the Chapel people came into the road, Braintree Road, to Annie Chapman’s, Miss Chapman’s school, because, you see, they wouldn’t bring them to the Church school, or the Catholic, it was very awkward, Catholic children, their faith is different isn’t it?

Q:    So if they didn’t want, so if the chapel people didn’t want to go to the ….?

Mrs I:    Catholic, that didn’t go to the Board School, they went to these little schools.

Q:    So those were the people that didn’t want to mix with the others?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, yes. Because it was, it was terrible.

Q:    So what sort of jobs did the people down Trafalgar Square do, do you remember? Did you know any of them at all? [Mrs I shaking head]. Or would you have to go there? [Mrs I shaking head] You didn’t even have to go there with your grandma or anything? [Mrs I shaking head]

Mrs I:    Well I’m afraid that was why I was very against the Witham Council.

Q:    Why was that?

Mrs I:    Well, because that’s where those people came from. But of course you don’t like to be snobbish. Course, that is the trouble, but of course, the husbands can’t help it can they? They marry these girls, don’t they? They leave Trafalgar Square and go away, you see, that come back, these fellows, where they meet them, I don’t know, I suppose they meet them in the War time like I met my husband. Oh yes, you know the …. Oh I suppose it was all right, it was just that we, just said these things [probably referring to girls from Trafalgar Square, such as the Woods, marrying men from elsewhere who came back and got on the Council].

Q:    You didn’t have anything to do with them, anyway?.

Mrs I:    No, no. You just kept by yourself.

Q:    So your friends were mostly, where did your friends mostly come from, in Witham, which part of town?

Mrs I:    Well, Chipping Hill was really the beautiful place, you liked your walk, you came right through the meadows, and you came, and you chose your friends, and their friends, didn’t you, and then you all play, don’t you, together.

Q:    So they came down to school, Church School as well mostly, did they?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, most of the time, ‘cos you weren’t there after seven [i.e. at the Infants’ school in Church Street], well they came down into Witham. Now Miss, she usually comes to me once a week, Taylor, Miss Taylor, now she’s my age, now her father worked for the Honourable Strutt, he was, bailiff at the farm. And yet they were very Liberal, we often laugh about it now.

Q:    [Laughs] What, the Taylors were?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Where does she live now?

Mrs I:    In Cressing Road, dress maker. And then we have the old times, you know, when anything is happening or when anything, then we have those times over. And then we say ‘You remember them, don’t you?’. [Laughs] But you don’t like to.

Q:    The other people, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes. Because I know there’s one boy, I admire him, he’s a firemen in Crittall’s, and he always speaks, and he’s so polite, and I saw his first baby, and I thought ‘Oh, Johnny, when I think of you as a little baby in that little pram, with sacks, covered with sacks’. Oh, and I think, and I think ‘Oh to think, you know, how the world has changed’. There’s no poverty now. There’s no poor in Witham, is there?

Q:    Not the same, no.

Mrs I:    You couldn’t tell me a poor person in Witham.

Q:    No, not like that.

Mrs I:    There’s not. There’s not a poor person, in Witham, ‘cos if they’re in need, they get it, don’t they?

Q:    I wonder how they used to manage, then, those people?

Mrs I:    Charity, wasn’t it. People, You see people were good. I mean there was the soup kitchens and the different things.

Q:    You had them in Witham?

Mrs I:    Yes. The Vicarage. Yes.

Q:    What, mostly from the Church, you reckon?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, definitely. Oh there were the people what we’d called the moneyed people, they were good, because I noticed that they’re criticising Dorothy Sayers. I know she didn’t help Witham, I agree with what the press said, but she helped seamen. Wool. She did more for the seamen, because I know there was all wool and knitted garments, but she didn’t help in Witham. Therefore people that are not interested in the art and that part I suppose don’t agree. But she was a very manly woman.

Q:    You remember her, do you?

Mrs I:    Oh, very. Oh, yes. I mean, you couldn’t miss her. She’d always dress in tweeds and socks, you know, not stockings, and a hat, and Major Fleming, yes, they were, they were real nice people.

Q:    Did you speak to them and so on? Did you know them personally or did you just see them about?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no, no, because you see that would be long before, ‘cos that was the college there then. But going into Cook’s, that’s where you’d see her, in the town, or going to the station to catch a train.

Q:    I see, Which was Cook’s?

Mrs I:    The pork butchers, where Stoffer’s is now, isn’t it [part of 5 Newland Street, since demolished, east of High House]. Course that was opposite wasn’t it, we’d watch her come out [of her house, 24 Newland Street]. And there was a monkey-puzzle tree there, course we were interested in that.

Q:    Can you remember any of the other shops and things when you were a child, any other shops and the people that used to run them?

Mrs I:    Yes, there was the chemist, I told you about that. And Smith’s the basket makers.

Q:    What was there next door to where you lived, for instance ?

Mrs I:    Oh, pawnbrokers. Oh yes, and then the Chapel. And the Constitutional Club was there, burnt down, a huge fire [west of 88 Newland Street, in front of what is now the United Reformed Church].

Q:    Who was there at the pawnbrokers [86 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Oh poor old Sammy Page.

Q:    Why do you say poor?

Mrs I:    Well we used to say ‘Here comes poor old Sammy Page’ [laugh]. We’d see the three balls over. You see, ‘cos he was always going into people’s houses if they’d died to get the antiques. Yes, we used to say ‘Here comes old Sammy Page’. I suppose we played up.

Q:    Did quite a lot of people use the pawnbroking?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Only for that reason, to take them in, yes. But chiefly that’s where they bought, you know, odd things.

Q:    So you reckon there wasn’t a lot of actual pawning?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no. You called it the pawn shop, but it wasn’t. And then you see there was the big, lovely china shop there [Beard, 88 Newland Street], and then of course there was this bothering Constitutional place. I remember that fire well.

Q:    Do you? Were you at home then? Did you come and watch, did you?

Mrs I:    Rushed down, yes, you always do.

Q:    What did they have then for putting it out with?

Mrs I:    Oh, the steam, that was a steam fire engine, steam. And the water carts, you never get the watering carts do you. For the roads, because of course they were just rough and ready, weren’t they? And in the summer the water carts used to come along to sprinkle the water.

Q:    What sort of top was there on the roads then?

Mrs I:    Just road.

Q:    Just ordinary earth, just dirt, you mean?

Mrs I:    Earth, yes. They’ve only just recently done these roads [Chalks Road]. Well then we used to get under the water cart, didn’t we, to get to wet. That was fun. You had to make your fun, didn’t you? You had to be naughty.

Q:    Speaking of water, where did the water come from for the house? Was there water in the houses?

Mrs I:    No, you know the mill, what I call down the mill, Powershall End [1 Powershall End], well that’s where they filled the, they filled it there, I was sorry they’ve taken that, it used to be a little round thing, and we used to love to stand on that, they’ve taken that down, and put some wooden fence, haven’t they.

Q:    What was the round ….?

Mrs I:    Well that was where this water cart, where they’d fill the water, from that well.

Q:    I see, that was down by the water, was it?.

Mrs I:    And there was a waggon, we used to paddle right through there, walk right through the water.

Q:    What, in the mill pond?

Mrs I:    Yes. Loved it. Course we did.

Q:    Who lived there then, did they not mind?

Mrs I:    No, Dodd.

Q:    They didn’t mind?

Mrs I:    No. And they used to sit on the wall there and fish. ‘Cos of course the mill, the water used to rush there, didn’t it?

Q:    Was there a mill there then, at Chipping Hill?

Mrs I:    No. Yes, but that was never used. Oh, we’d always say ‘We’re going down the mill’, to the mill house, the bridge is still there.

Q:    And the house is there, but there isn’t much of the mill, is there?

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    There was when you lived there, was there?

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    What, a wheel or something, was there?

Mrs I:    Yes. But the Blyth’s mill was our chief one, lovely down there.

Q:    And that was still working with the water?

Mrs I:    Yes. Through the arches.

Q:    Would the, going back to the fire, I suppose the fire engine would have to get water from the river as well?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. And the old fire station was in Guithavon Road, well right on the corner, wasn’t it, yes [corner of Guithavon Street and Mill Lane].

Q:    So what sort of people were on the fire engine, they were all just in their own time, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes, no uniform, no.

Q:    So were they all people that you knew?

Mrs I:    Oh, every one. Oh, you knew everyone.

Q:    I suppose you did, yes. How did they call the fire engine, did the word go round, or did they have a sort of ….?

Mrs I:    Oh no, there was a, there was a hooter, a hooter, yes, just a hooter.

Q:    What, on the engine house or something?

Mrs I:    Yes. Yes.

Q:    And then it was a steam engine.

Mrs I:    Steam, yes. It took ages.

Q:    I was going to say, how did they get it started?

Mrs I:    There was no fire extinguishers or anything like that.

Q:    ‘Cos if they’d got to get the engine going before they could get going, and get the water [Mrs I: Yes, imagine], no wonder the place burnt down.

Mrs I:    With all the pumps, yes.

Q:    I mean, what, if they ran out of water, they had to go ….?

Mrs I:    Pails of water, you usually did that first. I remember the bake house in Church Street [had a fire] [48 Church Street].

_____________________________________________

50. The First World War, part 3. More about the visiting soldiers.

 The 2nd/7th Warwickshire Regiment arriving in 1915 in a long, long, column. The dots mark the platoon of William Eric Murray, who was born in Australia. On the horse is Captain Hanson. Freebornes farm (now 3 Newland Street) is behind. (M2191).
The 2nd/7th Warwickshire Regiment arriving in 1915 in a long, long, column. The dots mark the platoon of William Eric Murray, who was born in Australia. On the horse is Captain Hanson. Freebornes farm (now 3 Newland Street) is behind. (M2191).

“There was always an air of expectancy as a new battalion marched into Witham. I was a boy standing open-eyed outside my father’s harness-maker’s shop in the High Street, then a small market town. They marched in fours – packs on backs, rifles shouldered, bayonet scabbards at hips, each company with captain marching ahead, lieutenants behind”. Gerald Palmer wrote this in 1988, about the First World War. He was four when the War began.

He continued: “Young women, and older ones too, stood on the pavement, smiling and waving, and there were some saucy remarks, and whistles from the men themselves. Most glamorous of all, and cheeky too, were the kilted Highland regiments. Often there was a band marching in front, and often the men made their own music, ‘Mademoiselle from Armentieres’,

‘It’s a long, long trail a-winding’.
‘Hello, hello, who’s your lady friend?
Who’s the little girlie by your side?
I’ve seen you, .. with a girl or two,
Oh, oh, oh, I am surprised at you’”

In a previous article I described the billeting of most of the soldiers with Witham families, who often found it beneficial. The equipment and horses were taken to the fields on either side of The Avenue, and the other soldiers camped there to look after them. Gerald Palmer watched their arrival and wrote “Occasionally there was cavalry, and sometimes horse artillery, with gun carriages and ammunition limbers, long lines of mules, with shell-laden panniers. Their arrival was more subdued, the clomping of the hooves, the jingling of harness. Artillery and cavalry went into the big meadows, which lay on each side of the fine avenue of lime trees, now The Avenue, where I remember the marquees, bell-tents, and long lines of tethered horses and mules.”

Soldiers from the Royal Engineers with horses on the Avenue fields. It is probably the Avenue at the back with its huge trees (M1889)
Soldiers from the Royal Engineers with horses on the Avenue fields. It is probably the Avenue at the back with its huge trees (M1889)

Other people had similar memories. For instance Walter Peirce (born in 1908) described “a great big camp from Collingwood Road right through to Avenue Road. Then in Collingwood Road they had the great big bake houses where you used to put all your wood in, heat all the oven up, then you’d clear it out and you put your dough in and you’d bake all the bread and that there”.

Mrs Edith Brown, born in 1896, said that “they were all over the place, they had The Avenue, didn’t they, for the horses and going down Collingwood Road on the left as you go down, that’s all houses there now, they used to be just meadows there and you could see the soldiers all cooking there, got all their things built, you know, what they cook with.”

A Scots soldier in the Avenue fields in 1916. His first name was Lewis. He was “a piper with 2/4th or 2/5th Royal Scots Fusiliers, according to the ever helpful Ian Hook. He sent this photo to his aunt Bella. The tents on the left would accommodate soldiers looking after horses and equipment (m1449)
A Scots soldier in the Avenue fields in 1916. His first name was Lewis. He was “a piper with 2/4th or 2/5th Royal Scots Fusiliers”, according to the ever helpful Ian Hook. Lewis sent this photo to his aunt Bella. The tents on the left would accommodate soldiers looking after horses and equipment (m1449)

Most of the soldiers seem to have made themselves at home fairly quickly. George Hayes (born in 1904) told me about the ones that lived with his family. “I think nearly all of them had been in prison for something but you could leave five bob’s worth of silver and they wouldn’t touch it. Two of them used to borrow Dad’s ferret and they used to go all over where nobody else would go and they used to sell the rabbits for beer.

And one Christmas they had to be in by eight o’clock and they used to dress up in women’s clothes and so they’d be down the pub till ten.. ‘Whenever they got leave home, you know seven days at home, they always had to send an escort down after them, never came back of their own free will, they always had an escort. They were known as Ferret and Nutty. Ferret was a little thin bloke and Nutty was a big fellow”

Others made a more cultural contribution. Alf Baxter (born in 1899) remembered when his father brought his melodeon out to one of their soldiers and said “‘Can you play?’ ‘Just a wee bit, just a wee bit’ he said. And he started and he was playing all Scotch reels and everything like that. And my father said ‘Well, After hearing you play, man, I come to the conclusion I know nothing about it’ and he never played it no more! No, he never played it no more. But this soldier, he was a quaint old boy, but he could really play that. He used to sit down and play, and we’d sit down and listen.”

Mrs Marjorie Coleman (nee Brown) was born in 1907, so she was a girl during the War. The Browns’ large house in Collingwood Road was well provided with comforts, so they had officers living with them. She recalled “one of these officers – and I suppose a lot of them were killed – sitting on the floor and teaching my sister and I to play whist.”

But the pleasure was short-lived. Fred Cook (born 1908) described “one pair when they knew they were going to France, they got drunk as a lord that day, they couldn’t stand. Laid on the floor near the door, you couldn’t shut it. Well I suppose they thought they were in for it didn’t they.”

A postcard produced by one of the Warwickshire regiments. Probably many similar ones were printed in other parts of the country. This one was given to Amos Shelley of Maldon Road by Private W.T.White, who was billeted with the Shelleys. He was killed in action on the Somme in 1916. (m0571)
A postcard produced by one of the Warwickshire regiments. Probably many similar ones were printed in other parts of the country. This one was given to Amos Shelley of Maldon Road by Private W.T.White, who was billeted with the Shelleys. He was killed in action on the Somme in 1916. (m0571)

Tape 005. Mrs Edie Brown (nee Hawkes) and Mrs Grace Springett (nee Bishop), sides 1 and 2

Tape 5

Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett were both born in about 1895, and were interviewed on 17 and 24 January 1977, when they lived at 13 and 9 Rex Mott Court, Witham.

They both appear also on tapes 6 and 8, and  Mrs Brown is also on tape 54.

For more information about Mrs Brown, see the the notes in the people category headed Brown, Mrs Edie, nee Hawkes.

For more information about Mrs Springett, see the the notes in the people category headed Springett, Mrs Grace, nee Bishop.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

______________________________

Side 1

Q:    You were living in Feering?

Mrs S:    Yes, well, Kelvedon, more, yes.

Q:    So when did you leave school?

Mrs S:    Fourteen, then I went into service at Inworth Hall, you know, the house they called it, it was their country house, I went there as a housemaid, well sort of, like, you know, well they were only down there at weekends, so I had to do all the clearing up and that with the caretaker and I suppose I was up there two years, only got two shillings a week, ‘cause I had to live at home, sleep at home, (Q:  I was going to say did you go home?) yes, I had to go home and then I got four shillings a week when they were down for the weekends, see, I had to work a little bit harder!  [Laugh]

Q:    How did you used to get there every day?

Mrs S:    Oh, I had a bicycle, but when I hadn’t got one my mum used to lend me hers.

Q:    So what sort of jobs did you have to do?

Mrs S:    Well, cleaning up really, you know, like spring cleaning nearly all the time really, that was a fairly big house and they were all old maids, bar the old lady of course, then she died. They always used to call me baby face. [Laugh]

Q:    Were they Cullens as well?

Mrs S:    No, they were Lawrences[?], Miss Lawrences, yes, I think that’s changed into a children’s home now, or something, it’s right up on the hill.

Q:    Where did they live in the week?

Mrs S:    In London, Belsize Avenue, I went up for a fortnight to relieve the under housemaid up there and the other housemaid said ‘Do you like being up there?’  I said ‘No, I don’t.’  I said, ‘I want to go home!’  [Laugh]

[Mumbling and laughter]

Q:    Had you been to London before?

Mrs S:    No, it was me first, oh when I was a child I did with me aunt, but, course that’s all different.  Then we were going up the underground and, the kitchen maid it was then, and, course I was ever so strange, you know, she was used to it and I was walking along, minding my own business I expect, when I got hold of somebody’s arm and I thought, I was talking away to her, this person thinking it was me friend and of course I had to apologise then, ‘That’s all right.’  She said, ‘s’all right.’ [Laugh]

Q:    Did you have different jobs in London?

Mrs S:    Well, I was kitchen maid up there, and that was great big old stove, you know, there was the cook, there was another kitchen maid and I was the under one ‘cause I was the youngest, I wasn’t about sixteen I expect, when I was up there then, then I left and, where did I go to?, I think I must have come to Witham at Cullen’s, Mr Cullen’s.

Q:    How old were you then?

Mrs S:    Must be about eighteen.

Q:    When were you born actually?

Mrs S:    In April.  (Q:  What year were you born?)  Oh, 1895.  (Q:  Long ago, wasn’t it?)  Eighty-two years ago, come April.  I lived in Feering itself then.

Q:    So you were telling me about coming to Cullen’s.  (Mrs S:  Oh, yes.)  Why did you change, do you know?  Why did you move?

Mrs S:    Well, ‘cause I wanted to better meself a little bit so I got more money then.

Q:    What did you get then?

Mrs S:    Only twelve shillings a month. [Laugh]  (Q:  A month?)  Yes, that’s all I got at me last place, went to Feering again then to Mrs Hunts, after I left there.

Q:    What did you have to do at the Cullens?

Mrs S:    Well, I went as housemaid and finished up as a cook.  (Q:  At Cullen’s, in two years did you say that was?)  Yes, I’d been there about two years, course the cook was away one day when she said ‘Will you cook the dinner?’ and I said ‘I can’t cook the dinner!’  You know! [Laugh]  ‘Oh, yes you can,’ she said ‘ you done it last Sunday and everybody enjoyed it.’  So, then the cook, she left, a few weeks after, and I took her job over you see, ’Course,’ she said ‘you can cook.’ and course they used to help me a little bit, Miss [Maud[?] Cullen did and I think some of them are still about now, the Cullen’s.  (Q:  Yes, I’ve heard of the name.)  Course they’d be younger, you know, they’d be their grandsons or….there’s none of the old Cullen’s left.  (Q:  I wondered about that.)  No, they’re all gone.

Q:    Who was in the Cullen family at that time?

Mrs S:    There’s Frank, Tom, Walter I think, Maud, Ella, Ella married a Mr Fairweather, I don’t know if they’re still about but I don’t suppose they are.  (Q:  So they were the younger?)  They were the younger Cullen’s, yes.  (Q:  Were their parents …?)  They died years ago.

Q:    Were they living there when you …?

Mrs S:    When I left, yes, they were both there then.

Q:    So was that the same Cullens as had the seed …

Mrs S:    Yes, the same people, yes.

Q:    What was the house there at Bramstons like? [16 Chipping Hill]

Mrs S:    Well, (Q:  It was quite big isn’t it?) yes, there was a dining room, lounge, front room like, then there was another room and then there was a fairly big hall, then there was what they called the gunroom where they kept the guns, they used to go shooting a lot, you know, the sons did, then there was a kitchen, and this big old scullery.

Q:    What was in the scullery?

Mrs S:    Great old slab, sink, not like sinks we have today, they were all concrete sort of things, cold.

Q:    So what did you have to do about washing the clothes?

Mrs S:    No, the daughters done the clothing.

Q:    Did they did do some things for themselves?

Mrs S:    Oh, yes, yes, they done the washing, they done all the mending and turning out cupboards, cupboards, the laundry cupboard.

Q:    So how many servants would there be altogether?

Mrs S:    There was only two of us.  (Q:  Cook and the housemaid?)  Cook and housemaid, yes.  Housemaid do upstairs, you know, cook does downstairs, well, I had to do some of the downstairs as well, the dining room.

Q:    In those days everybody knew what the job, if you said housemaid, people would know what you did?

Mrs S:    Yes, in London you see there were, I think there were seven servants, the parlour maid and the under parlour maid, upper house maid and the under house maid, you see, and then there was the cook and two kitchen maids.  [Laugh]  Then sometimes there was a another family come, you see, and there was a nurse for the children.  That big house opposite [35 Chipping Hill, Barnardiston House], the Cullens then, well, what was that called? Bibolini’s used to live there then, but I think their friends used to come and stay there, I don’t know Mr Bibolini, I forget now, it’s been so many years ago, you lose, you know …. (Q: Quite, yes.)  Yes.

Q:    Oh I’ve heard of them, I thought that was a funny name for Witham.  Were they from overseas, Bibolini or was it just ….?

Mrs S:    I think it was an Italian name, I think.  (Q:  It sounds like it , doesn’t it?)  We didn’t know them, you know, ‘cause we were, we’d just go out one, one half day a week, and the evening.

Q:    What did you used to do when you had your half day?

Mrs S:    Used to go home, bike home, to Kelvedon.  (Q:  Did you?)  Yes.  (Q:  On your bike?)  Yes.

Q:    But you wouldn’t go home ….?

Mrs S:    That’s where I met my husband, there, he was painting upstairs, old gypsy woman come to the door, she said ‘That’s the man you’re going to marry.’  I said ‘What,’ I said ‘no, not him.’  [Laugh]  She said ‘That’s the one you’ll marry,’ she said ‘and you’ll go so many years and have a son, you’ll go so many years and have a daughter.’  She crossed me hand with sixpence and that’s true, I had him.  [Laugh]

Q:    He was painting, was that a ….?

Mrs S:    He was painting the Cullens’ house.  (Q:  Oh, I see.)  Oh, he kept winking at me, you know!  [Laugh]  I didn’t take much notice.

Q:    Were there a lot of gypsies and people like that, in those days, were there more then?

Mrs S:    They used to come round selling pegs and that, you know.  (Q:  Where did they ….?)  Also, she said ‘You got a photo?’  ‘Somebody,’ I says, ‘a young man, yes I got a photo of a young man.’  ‘Cause I got a young man [???]  ‘No,’ she said ‘it’s not him.’  [Laugh]  I remember her saying that, you know.

Q:    Where did the young man come from that you had then?

Mrs S:    [Mumbling and laughter ???]

Q:    Amazing how people meet their husbands, because different people still meet casual like that these days wouldn’t they, but on the other hand people [???].

Mrs S:    No, I mean, I think we were more daring really, not the way some of ‘em are today, ‘cause some like to come round, down the road and whistle and round the gate and have a chat in the evening.

Q:    What, when you weren’t working?

Mrs S:    Yes, at night time.  [Laugh]  [???]he’d be there!  [Laugh]  He was a good husband.

Q:    He was a Witham man, was he?

Mrs S:    Yes.

Q:    Did you meet him again or did he keep on after you?

Mrs S:    Oh, he kept on.  (Q:  Did he?)  Yes, he kept on.

Q:    Even when you went back to Kelvedon, you say?

Mrs S:    Oh, yes, he came home [???] deep snow and he got one of these lamps used to have carbon lamps didn’t they?  (Q:  Did they?)  Yes, you had to fill them up with this carbide stuff or something and one night it’d been snowing when he got to the [???] at Kelvedon and he lost the little thing that’s the burner, he said a long time afterwards [???] walk the rest of the way home then.

Q:    He was a painter, was his job painting, was it?

Mrs S:    Yes, that was his job, he was with the firm, and of course, that changed hands and Dean was the first one he went to, then he was fifty[?] years on the same [???] Adams and Mortimer’s and then that changed over, that was Dean’s, and Adams and Mortimer took over, [???].  (Q:  Adams and Mortimer built my house.)  Did they?  (Q:  In Chalk Street.  They’re well built too.  I didn’t meet these Dean’s before though, that was the same firm was it?)  That was years ago, he married a Miss Frost[actually Miss Rust], then there was Mr Lee, he used to be in the office, I don’t know if you know him.  (Q:  I’ve heard his name.)  [???]

Q:    So when did you get married in the end then?

Mrs S:    1920.

Q:    And then you came to live in Witham?

Mrs S:    Yes, I had to live with my brother for about three months, then I got one of Mr Dean’s houses, I was in there 55, 55 years, [???] how long have I been married, 1920, ‘77, that’s over 50 years.

Q:    Where abouts was that house?

Mrs S:    Up Church Street, right by the prefabs [???].

Q:    So that was the one you were in all that time?

Mrs S:    Yes, (Q:  And that was one of his houses was it?)  Yes, one of Mr Dean’s, well Keith, Mrs Brown’s son, bought three[?].  (Q:  Yes, that was right.)  I could have had it for £200, but of course, when they were going like that, I couldn’t afford, hadn’t got the money (Q:  Of course.) hadn’t got the money in those days.

Q:    Did you stop working when you got married?

Mrs S:    Well, I went down to Miss Hunt’s, I left Miss Hunt you see to get married at Feering and then she, Miss Hunt had a house in, I think it was called Horwood House, that’s a bank now, I believe [59 Newland Street] And I went down there for a week or a fortnight to get the children, ‘cause that was the children’s home, and I just stopped about a fortnight. I got to get there at a certain time you see, for the breakfasts and that was too much.

Q:    I’ve read about that I think, what sort of home was it, just orphans?

Mrs S:    Just for the children, I think they were orphans, you know (Q:  She ran it herself, did she?) yes, and I don’t know, but I think she went to Wickham or somewhere up that way afterwards, I had to give up at any rate.  [??? still in Kelvedon now, [???], Miss Dorothy Hunt, my sister-in-law was with the Warrens at Feering, [???], I was there I suppose about two months, two years or more.

Q:    So you’d be a good cook by the time you got married?  That’s why your husband was so keen!?  [Laugh]  So you didn’t work any more after ….?

Mrs S:    Well, I done the seeds for Mr Cullen at home.  (Q:  Oh, I see.)  Yes, (Q:  Tell me about that.) that was a long, long time ago now, you know, that was a long while after I got married when I had me children, then we had some great big sacks of peas standing this high, towards the end they were that high, you know, but used to sort them on the table in front of the window.

Q:    So what did you have to do with them, what ….?

Mrs S:    Take the bad ones from the good’ns, roll the good ones down your lap and into a bath.  [Laugh]  (Q:  A bath?)  Well, whatever you’d got there to put ‘em in, into a bath, yes, there were hundredweight bags of peas, (Q:  So you ‘d pick them out would you?)  Put them on the table, dining table, do that [???]  (Q:  Then what would you do with the bad ones?)  They used to take them back for the pigs.  (Q:  Did they have a special room?)  Yes, a shed for the bad ones.  (Q:  I suppose you got to do them quite quickly in the end?)  Well, fairly quick, that was pocket money for ourselves and clothed the children, you see, that was several years after I married like.

Q:      That’s interesting .

Mrs S:   Used to go pea picking and that, me and Mrs Brown, used to bike all over the place.  (Q:  That was after you were married as well was it?) Yes, that was after she came back to Witham.  I had the children small, one of them was in a pram and the other could walk like you know.  (Q:  So you took them with you?)  Oh, yes, five o’clock in the morning, sometimes we walked to Notley.  [Laugh]  (Q:  I was going to say, you couldn’t go on the bike when you had two little ones could you?)  No, no.

Q:    When did you have the children?

Mrs S:    After a few years, 1924 and 1928.

Q:    And you had them in Witham did you?

Mrs S:    Yes.

Q:    What did people used to do in those days, did you have them at home or go to …?

Mrs S:    Home, yes, no doctor, just the nurse, from the bungalow, it isn’t a nursing home now is it?  (Q:  I heard about the bungalow.)  Yes, but I was at home with both mine.

Q:    I suppose that would be quite different then, looking after the children that long ago wouldn’t it?

Mrs S:    Yes, course, when they got older I remember we used to take them out into the fields, they used to love it – pea picking.

Q:    How did you used to hear about the pea picking?

Mrs S:    Well, ‘cause there was quite a lot about then, you see, no houses, where those houses, where we used to live, there were all fields up there, no houses past ours, back of our houses.  (Q:  So there were peas there?)  Mm (Q:  Peas quite near you?)  Yes, yes, over the back, we used to get up, one morning we thought we’d beat everyone to it and we got up at three and there was one man in the field, so we weren’t first starters[?].

Q:    That was just off Church Street there was it?

Mrs S:    The back of where we used to live, yes, ‘cause they were all fields, where you are now, just a farm [???][???].  (Q: Cocks farm, wasn’t it?)  Yes, (Q:  Mr Brown?)  Yes, that’s right, yes.  (Q:  Yes, people told me about that, how nice it was.  And they’d have peas there, it was quite handy wasn’t it?)  Yes.

Q:    How much did you used to get paid for it?

Mrs S:    Ninepence a bag and they were big bags and course towards the end, later years, they were only small bags like this.

Q:    What used to happen if you didn’t get there soon, as early as that, were you just ….?

Mrs S:    Well, we had to pick all day, well, till they tied[?] us up, you see, one day, I was up at, past the Vic there [the Victoria, Powershall End], that’s where they’re building them big houses, all them houses now, [in front of?] the Vic, Three of us we got [???] 36 bags to tie, three of us, we all picked the same, Mrs Brown and me and Mrs [???], we all lived in the same yard, yes 36 bags between us, that’s only 12 shillings each then, so it wasn’t a lot of money, not like it is today [Laugh].  Mind you, that went a long way with us because, you know, things were cheaper.

Q:    What sort of, that was in that field, where the new houses are building now, is it?

Mrs S:    Yes, yes, round by the Vic.

Q:    Yes, I know, ‘cause I mean, that’s just been grass (Mrs S:  Yes.) lately hasn’t it?

Mrs S:    Yes, yes, [???] building such a lot of houses up there haven’t they?

Q:    So what did you used to spend your twelve shillings on, you used to keep that for yourself did you?

Mrs S:    I spent it on the children, had to, clothes and all that, I mean, my husband’s money wasn’t very big.  (Q:  No.)

Q:    So, was it, your house, the house was rented from Mr Dean all the time was it?  (Mrs S:  Yes.)  Do you remember what the rent was?

Mrs S:    When we first, rent was about five shillings, then it went to 5s 6d [like there was a?] new toilet[?] in, [???]

Q:    Was the painting thought of as quite a good job?

Mrs S:    Well, it was, I mean, (Q: Steady, I suppose?) he was there all these years.  (Q:  Yes, sort of steady job that, I suppose you wouldn’t get all that [pause] much work ….. were there, I suppose, were there people still in Witham in those days really sort of thought of as ladies and gentlemen, do you know, sort of take your hat off to sort of thing or not having …. (Mrs S:  Coughing and apologises for ‘Sorry, talking too much.’)
[several seconds silence]

Q:    I think, I haven’t got a photo of, that photo of Trafalgar Square, you remember I said (Mrs B:  Oh, yes.) I haven’t, I hope I’ll get that this week, from my friend, so I’ll pop back again next week, perhaps, and show you that.

Mrs B:    Yea, I haven’t seen a photo of it, not meself.

Q:    Well, this chap said he’d got one, but he’s coming round in the week with it, (Mrs B:  Yea.) I don’t know why, you know, what they took it for or anything, because ….

Mrs B:    Well, they used to take old places didn’t they so, that was very old, you know?

Q:    Was it?

Mrs B:    We lived there all my childhood days was spent there, we was born there, you know, and me brothers and that grew up, they all grew up ….

Q:    How many brothers and sisters did you have?

Mrs B:    I had, there was em, nine or ten of us (Q:  Was there really?)  There was George, Ted, John, (Mrs S:  Alice.), Alice, Emily, Esmond, Lill, (Mrs S:  Fred.), Yea, Fred and Ernie, oh, there was … I think mum had about thirteen, I think she lost two, they’re all dead there’s only me and my sister at Ilford alive now.  (Mrs S:  No, it isn’t, Esmond’s still alive.)  Edmund, yes, oh, I always forget me youngest brother, he’s 72.  (Q:  Laugh, Oh, yes, the youngest one!) Em, he lives at Brightlingsea.  He was on the railway from when he left school, he went into signal box.

Q:    So what was your name before you married?

Mrs B:    Hawkes.

Q:    Hawkes.  Actually, did I ask you what was your name before ….?

Mrs S:    Bishop.

Q:    Bishop, oh, I didn’t ask you that did I?  So what year were you born then.

Mrs B:    I was born down Trafalgar Square.

Q:    What year?

Mrs B:    Oh, I’m 81 (Q:  How old are you?  81) [Laugh]  I was 81 Christmas, December (Q:  Yes.) and my sister at Ilford is em, just two years older and a month only hers is the 8th January, (Q:  Oh, really?)  She was, she’d be 79 January, then I had a younger sister I lost, she was about 3½ years younger than me, like me mother must have one in the January and the year, about a year and five months after she had another one, (Q:  Yea.) and I remember her saying she lost one with convulsions, teething, you know, one daughter, Alice her name was and I’ve got a sister Alice live at Ilford, she was named after her, (Q:  Yea.) they did that them days named, you know, ‘cause I named my daughter after meself, you know, my daughter I got, her name’s the same as mine, I had a brother kept the blacksmith’s at Witham.  (Q:  Really?)  Down near The Crotchet that used to be, ‘cause they turned, the brewery bought it and they turned that into a, the forge, into a (Q:  Oh, I know, it’s a pub isn’t it, yea?) yea, I went in once, my son when I come from Nottingham, ‘cause I got a son up there, I bin up there for a holiday and we got to Witham just before two and his father-in-law wanted to go into The Crotchet ‘cause he’s got friends there and he said then you can see your brother’s forge and I went in, the only time I’ve ever seen it.

Q:    Did he go there from school or what?  (Mrs B:  Where?) . Your brother, did he go straight away to the blacksmiths when he left school – your brother?

Mrs B:    Yes, I remember my mother said he got 1/6d a week, he worked for a Mr Brockes, they used to live in the house near the forge.  (Q:  I see.)  Well, the daughter lived there for years after the parents died, then my mother, my brother took the business over and em, em, he got one and six a week and she had to pay one and six for his apron, ‘cause they were all leather aprons them days, so he had to, like, two aprons, (Q:  Yea.) so they worked two weeks for nothing.  [Laugh]

Mrs S:    [Couldn’t hear her comment]

Mrs B:    Well, you didn’t get no money did you, ‘cause I remember when my brothers all went to work, ‘cause my mother like, had two families, she had em, there was George, Ted, Fred, Bill, and my sister Emily and me older sister, they were all working and married and there was John, me, Alice and Lill and Esmond, all like at school age, you know, all g’n to school, so there was like a family grown up and another lot going to school, me dad was a carpenter, we always had plenty, you know, was fairly comfortable, you know, good meals and me brothers used to go out with the doctors a lot, one brother nearly lived with Dr Ted Gimson, Bill, what died, he em, he used to go out with him everywhere on the boats fishing when that wa’nt shooting season, when it was shooting season he used to go out with them then, you know, (Q:  Oh.) yea, he used to live there, up there a lot, his house, where Dr Denholm’s got it now hasn’t he?  (Q:  Gimson’s, they call it Gimson’s don’t they?)  Yes, Dr Ted had that built, (Q:  I see.) yes.

Q:    How did your brothers get to know him then, just ….?

Mrs B:    Work, just work, when they worked for Lewis, what used to be in Witham years and years ago, they were builders and, well, they done all sorts, everything, general work, you know em, my brothers go to know the doctors, now they used to go out, take the ferrets and the dogs and go out shooting with them, that’s how they got to know, and my brother Bill lived nearly with Dr Ted, they thought the world of one another, well, my brother didn’t live long after he died.  (Q:  Really?)  No, ‘cause I remember all the Gimsons dying, the whole family family.  (Mrs S:  Lovely family.)  Yes, they were, they were marvellous doctors, they were, always remember if I ever took one of the children down there, used to have to pay them days, perhaps half, two and six, that was a lot of money then, but they never used to take the money off us, (Q:  Really?) and always remember when my father died Dr Ted come the morning he died and he got the bottom of stairs, he said em, no, just before he died, he said, ‘You know, I loved ‘im like I loved me own father.’  (Q:  Yes?) my father always used to go with them when he was, before he got too old, you know, but they were lovely people, there was  em, they had a sister, she married a Mr Brandt and they lived in that house with that little arch thing over, before you get to the doctors [The Gables, 125 Newland Street], they got little, well, I don’t know if that’s still there is it?  (Mrs S:  Think so.) (Q:  Oh, yes, a sort of wooden porch way?)  Yes, that’s right, yea, well Mr Brandt lived there, (Q: Gables, it was called the Gables?  Something like that, I think, yes.) I couldn’t tell you, I forget, I haven’t been to Witham such a long time I haven’t been (Mrs S:  You forget.) not out for walk for I don’t know how long, I think I been up, I’ve been down here two years, I think I’ve been up the town once ain’t I?  (Mrs S:  And me.)  Hey?  (Mrs S:  Nearly killed me.)  Yea, I got hold of her arm, ‘cause I can hardly walk and push her here and push her there, ‘cause I’m three times as big as what she is [Laugh] I take hold of her arm sometimes, when we go to the taxi on Sunday and I often think to myself, ‘Well if I fell down, she’d come down and all.’  [Laugh]  That’s funny.

[silence at the end]

Side 2

[Silence at the beginning]

[discussion about tape recording]

Mrs B:    …that was when I was, long before my husband died, ‘cause he was one, he’d never go out to tea, (Q:  Really?) Say ‘What’d I wanna go out to tea for when I can have me tea indoors.’  we used to have a job getting him in yours Christmas time (Mrs S:  Yes.) We used to have one day together either Christmas day, and then Boxing Day they’d come in mine for Christmas, the children would have the Christmas tree, you know.  (Mrs S:  Oh, Yes …..)

Q:    I suppose you got to know each other when you were in Church Street first was it?

Mrs B:    Yes, when I first come I was in Sunderland, see my husband belonged Sunderland, when I went up there and Edie was born up there, my eldest daughter, she’s 53, same age as Bill ain’t she?  (Mrs S:  Yes.)  And she was eight months old when I come back to Witham, there was no work, depression up (Q:  Of course, yes.) north was terrible, every ship yard was closed down and the foundries, and there was no work, my husband worked in a limestone quarry for a time, it was a terrible job, because they used to blow the rock out and that was wet, they were all stiff with this limestone, you know. He had a job to get the sack to come to Witham, ‘cause I had a brother here used to work for Mr Wenden and they said they’d get him a job if we come down this way, I’d got Edie a baby, eight months when I come next door to you wa’nt she?  (Mrs S:  Yes, that’s right.)  and erm, so he went late every morning trying to get the sack and ‘cause he was a good worker always and, he couldn’t get the sack, in the finish the boss asked him what was wrong and then he told him and he said ‘Well, why didn’t you say, I would have, sort of paid you off.’ you know,  (Q:  Yes.) so he’d a gone on the dole, course you didn’t get much then on the dole, I think I got, for me and Stan and one child was one pound one then, ‘cause you didn’t get a lot of wages then. And we come down here and lived with me father in Church Street, next door to Mrs Springett (Q:  Yes.) and she’d got Cecil as a baby then ain’t ya, well the same age as Edie, well, all but a month, well, no (Mrs S:  Three months.) three months and Edie’s is in October and Cecil’s was in ‘er (Mrs S:  January.) January, yes.  (Mrs S:  Yes, forgot it didn’t I?)  So erm we were just friendly there, we used to go out to work together in the fields and used to go out for cycle rides sometimes and have a look where we were going (Mrs S: Yes, yes.) pea picking the next day (Mrs S:  Next day.) do you remember when I went through the hedge?  (Mrs S:  Yes. [Laugh])  (Q:  What happened there then?)  (Mrs S:  She got [???]) Oh, it was funny, we was riding along Cressing Road one night and erm there’s a field of peas, so I said I’d get over and have a look and see what they’re like, and in fact, when they pick ‘em we’ll go there in the morning, if they’re picking, well, course, I got hold of this hedge and they’d been filling the hedges in, course, they’ve cut ‘em down today, and course they’d filled ‘em in with dry wood, all hawthorn, well, I got on this with one foot on this hedge to get over to look at these peas and me foot went over and I had thorns in me leg, all the way up, great big black thorns, good job that was dry wood, ‘cause they broke off you see, I had one in, I think I had that one for two or three weeks, I couldn’t get out, but I was at night getting these out, got a needle and was getting these thorns out of me leg and I got one in and every time I went pea picking early hours of the morning, ‘cause you used to go out about half past five, five o’clock.  We always started with picking two bags of peas before breakfast didn’t we?  (Mrs S:  Before breakfast, yes.)  Then we used to sit and have our breakfast (Mrs S: I can remember [???]) that was two shillings, (Q:  Before breakfast?) before breakfast (Q:  What was the two shillings for?) Shilling for a bag of peas, we used to have to (Q:  Oh, I see, yes, yes.) pick a bag.  Well, one day we went pea picking, me and Grace along the Faulkbourne Road and there was, and next, there were three of us in the yard, three houses Mrs, Mrs (Mrs S: Maylin[?] wasn’t it?) well, our friends sister wa’nt it, Burton, erm, we picked (Mrs S:  36.) 36 bags one day, 12 each (Q:  Oh!) marvellous peas wa’nt they, (Mrs S:  Yes.) all hung on the end of the rise[?] that was the, opposite Faulkbourne Hall (Q:  Really?  Yes.) yes, (Mrs S:  [???] peas, I told you.)  (Q:  Oh, really, yes, yes.) and when the man come to tie ‘em up he said ‘What you got, have you got tremendous ….’, we kept all in one great round heap, you know, altogether so, ‘cause you used to have to wait till they tied ‘em, they were tying everybody’s, sometimes you had to wait a long while, so we used to carry them, keep them all together, I used to shove ‘em on me back and carry ‘em, I did and I could do it then, course couldn’t do it now .

(Mrs S:  Laugh.) and keep ‘em all in one great big heap, so when he tied ‘em, tied ‘em, we could get home, you know, ‘cause you gotter get home and cook a meal and your housework to do and washing to do and all sorts after you’d had a day in the fields, I’ve seen us go out for nearly nothing.  (Mrs S:  Yes, [???] went over the back, where your houses are built now.)  Oh, yes, (Mrs S:  Laugh) There was a pea field just the top of our garden, and course there were gaps in the hedge where the children used to go in the field and play before they made a, ploughed it, and made a pea field of it, they grew wheat and all sorts in the different years, you know, and we got up one, left the children all in bed, ‘cause we’d only just got to get over the hedge, there was one solitary man in the middle of the field, [Laughter] and the moon was still shining, one star [Laughter] and we (Q:  Did you start picking that soon?)  (Mrs S:  Yes.)  and we started picking peas that morning (Q:  Could you see?) and then we went, yea, that would [(Mrs S:  talking in the background, but can’t hear what she’s saying)] it was light, you know, ever so early in the morning (Mrs S:  3 o’clock we got up, didn’t we?) yea, and then erm we went in for breakfast and got the children up so we could leave ‘em in bed that morning ‘cause that was, later, my husband used to, used to hate me, to see me getting the children up, especially if I’d got a baby in the cot (Q:  Yes.) and wash it, you know, used to give it a bath overnight and get it ready in the morning and used to have to give ‘em all something before they went out, something to drink and something to eat, you know, and then have your breakfast in the field, we used to have breakfast and dinner in the field.  We’ve had some fine times (Q:  You used to take the breakfast and dinner with you?)  everything, yes, take a loaf of bread and butter and whatever you, cheese or whatever you got to put on your bread, you know, till you got home and cooked a good meal.  (Q:  What time would you get back then, usually?)  Well, all times, sometimes they’d knock you off early, according how the market was, if the market was good, well, we used to work, sometimes we never used to get home there till four o’clock in the afternoon, we used to be scrapping to get home to get the tea, ‘cause my husband used to hate it, he used to hate the field work (Q:  Did he?) he never liked me going out the fields, I was was glad to go because it was a little money, because when I had Keith, my youngest son, he’s 39, when I had him all I had was two pound two and six a week and that was to keep seven of us and pay your rent and your gas, everything, course you had an open fire then, you had to buy coal and coke or whatever you had, you know, we had all fuel then, we never had, they come and put us a gas in first didn’t they?  (Mrs S:  Yes.) And then after that, we had the electric light, that was cleaner, gas was filthy, that used to be all soot, they used, mantles was always breaking, mantles (Mrs S:  Yea, mantles, yea.)  (Q:  Did you have that put in though did you, the gas light?)  Hey?  (Q:  The gas light was put in while you were there?)  Yes, while we were there, in the cottages, we used to have oil lamp (Q:  I was going to say, what did you have before that?) and you see I had a table with two leaves, and one I had left down, ‘cause it was a small kitchen, well my husband put a screw in the coal place at the back of your table (Q:  Yea.) [Laugh] just had to let the coalman in the morning and used to throw the coal in (Q:  Really?) with his dirty feet come in your kitchen, throw the coal in your coal place, you know, it was just the back of the table, we done away with it years before we left there (Mrs S:  Yes, oh, yes.) and had it all cleaned out and a cupboard, you know, made a cupboard of it and had the coal up the yard, but when the children were little that was terrible.  (Q:  So how did you used to get the coal out again, through the same ….?) No, used to pull the table out, in the scuttle and (Q:  Oh, I see.) and then shut it up again.   (Q:  Yea, cor that was a job wasn’t it?)  Yes, it was horrible and (Mrs S:  Well, people don’t know anything today, really.)  No, everything’s easy, I mean you’d got, you’d got a do everything them days, there was nothing easy, there was, you couldn’t open a tin or you couldn’t have a tinned pudding or, you’d got a, we used to get home, we used to sit and shell a colander of peas, used to fetch peas home with us, you know (Q:  Yes.) and scrape new potatoes and carrots and, you’d got a cook a good meal at night, because leaving ham or something like that at dinner time.  (Mrs S:  Course we had an allotment in those days.)  (Q:  Did you?)  My husband, we used to argue because he never liked a cooked tea, we never agreed, Mrs Springett, her husband never minded, but my husband never loved a cooked tea, he loved his dinner at dinner time and when he was on nights once at Crittalls he never liked that cooked tea, he used to like his dinner at dinner time, the proper time (Q:  Even then, yea?)  Then he used to have to put up with it then of course.

Q:    Did he work at Crittalls very long?

Mrs B:    32 and a half years he worked at Crittalls.

Q:    So what, so was he somewhere else before?

Mrs B:    No, he worked up the north, that was when we come from the north .  (Q:  And then he went to Crittalls?)  He was out of work for, I think we [???] about September time, I couldn’t say exactly, that’s been so many years ago, and he didn’t get into Crittalls till the next spring I think it was, but he got odd jobs for the council, he worked for the council erm doing different odd jobs, you know, just had an odd job now and again, he never had a regular job till (Q:  Well work was hard to get here I should think?)  Yea, and then he got into, eventually, got into Crittalls (Q:  Oh, that was lucky then hey?) and then he was there, he was there (Mrs S:  No factories here then.) Hey? (Mrs S:  No factories here then) no, there wasn’t much in Witham at all.  (Q:  Just Crittalls.) No there weren’t when we were young, you know, I mean, that was all service, you’d gotta go into service but I never liked service, I always run away from everywhere I went.

Q:    You were telling me you went to the Rounds[?]

Mrs B:    I went to the glove factory first.

Q:    When you left school, where did you go first?

Mrs B:    Oh, when I first went, left school, I always remember going to work with a bit of red ribbon tied me hair back, ‘cause I had long curly hair, you know and I went to the White Hart hotel, well, they give me a stove to clean, well that was half as long as this room.  [Laughter] I didn’t know where to start, you know, I never, our little stoves in our house was small and little oven and little open fire place and oh, on my knees cleaning that, a great big stock pot on the side where they kept stock (Mrs S:  Always had a stock pot didn’t they?) oh, filthy old thing, I used to brush and brush, I thought I‘d never finish cleaning that.  (Q:  Yea.)  Then I used to help with the beds and all that sort of thing, like in the morning and then helped the cook, they used to get good food there, dinner, I used to go home in the afternoon, you know, about three, then I went to Rounds.

Q:    So when you were at the White Hart, what did you get paid then, do you remember?

Mrs B:    I forget what I got paid then, not much, (Q:  No.) because when I went to Rounds I only had fivepence a day, well from about, I dunno we went half past seven, eight o’clock in the morning till about three in the afternoon and you got fivepence a day when you went Sunday morning for, only for just a little while, they used to go to church in a carriage and pair, you know and Annie, I always remember Annie Chalk, I don’t know whether she’s still alive, I haven’t heard she died, I haven’t seen her for a long, long time, I did see her when I was up Church Street a few times.  She erm, oh, she’d take me in the conservatory, you know, the greenhouse, where all the, she used to pick me a little bunch of lovely flowers on a Sunday morning and I used to go, ‘cause we only had to just make beds, just do the essentials on a Sunday ‘cause you weren’t allowed to work, you know, and Mrs Round used to come in the kitchen every morning and (Mrs S:  Give you your orders.  [Laugh]) Give orders, give the cook orders what they gotta have for lunch and everything, you know, but we used to get good food, that’s the main thing we had.  (Q:  Yes, that’s true.)  Well, we had good food at home, good plain food, I mean, but erm (somebody come to see Mrs Shelley), but erm that was hard going when we were young, I mean it was hard work for what little bit of money you got, I mean you never knew what really, what pocket money was.

Q:    How many servants did they have at the Rounds?

Mrs B:    Rounds, they had just cook, house parlourmaid, and I used to go in, I remember one morning I couldn’t get the fire to go in the morning room, I used to have to sweep that and used to have to do that all on your hands and knees, great big room in the front of the house with two great big windows, used to have to get on it and sweep it all on your hands and knees, and one morning I couldn’t get the fire to go and I thought “Oh, dear, I dunno.” I kept lighting it and I got the oil can [Laughter] [???] and one of the sons stood in the doorway watching and there weren’t half some trouble, the cook got into trouble for letting me have the oil can, you know, but you couldn’t get the fire alight the wood was used to have, used always to have this tree wood, what they used to call faggots, we used to call ‘em didn’t we (Mrs S:  Yes.) and course there was a man, gardener and that, and he used to chop it all up in little pieces and that was an awful job to light, some mornings you couldn’t get it alight and I always remember that morning when I, I kept throwing this oil on the fire [Laughter] and when I turned round he stood in the doorway, I got, we got into trouble over that.  (Q:  What did you do, you didn’t get the sack or anything?)  Oh, no, just got, we got a telling off like, but, course the cook, I was only young then, I was only, hadn’t long left school and course my mother sent me there to learn how to do all this housework and, but you gotta go into service and do it, you know, I went to Ilford most of my time I spent, in service.

Q:    But, how, tell me about the Round family, who were they, what names …. (Mrs B:  Oh, there was …)  was there a lot of them?

Mrs B:    Not a lot, I think there was erm, there was one son, I think he was a bit religious, he used always to have his bedroom right up in the attic, horrible little bedroom it was and little tiny window, you, know, little windows what, they got a bit down like that, the small windows right up in the attic (Q:  I know, yea.) he used to go up there and used to go along, great big boarded floor, great big water tank all the way along, I used to be terrified to go up there, sometimes I used to have to go up and wash the floor, oh, well on this wooden floor and I used to be frightened, frightened to death up the back stairs I used to go, course I only used to go up there, have to go up there to do the bedroom you see, I used to have to go up with her, but I worked with her and Alice Driver, oh, she’s dead now, she got a daughter live in Mill Lane hasn’t she …. (Mrs S:  Yes, that’s right.)  still, and erm (Q:  What was his name, Christian name?)  Whose?  (Q:  His first name, the chap who had the attic?)  Oh, that was Douglas, one of them was, then they had a daughter who was a bit, she was a bit, well, she wasn’t, a bit backward, one daughter, but I think Annie stopped with them, oh, she never married, Annie didn’t, not Annie Chalk, what I worked with, I think, she stopped with the family when the old people died, she stopped (Q:  With them.) with the family, and I think they all went at the finish, you know, well, I don’t know whether the sons both died, but the daughter did I know, because we used to watch her, she had a little, I used have to do the back hall and all along the floors and clean the little window and sometimes you got on a chair, clean this little window in her bedroom, she used to be dancing in front of the mirror and fitting all sorts of things on, you know, she was properly funny really, she was all right to talk to, I mean, she, but erm, had a, that was a great big house, had a big back landing and front landing, you know, spare rooms and, and she was an invalid, she used to take, always take that Sanatogen (Mrs S:  Oh, yes.) I don’t know if you can still get it, but she always took that.  (Q:  What’s that, Mrs Round?)  Mrs Round, yes, she was a bit of an invalid and he was a poor old thing, you know, they were both getting on when I worked there, getting on in years.

Q:    What did they, what was his job, do you know or …. ?)

Mrs B:    No, I don’t think he did anything when I was there, not then.  Might have been business people.

[Pause – tape turned off and on again]

Mrs B:    For your telephone when you’re out and you take ….
[noises on tape, then continue, looking at photos of Trafalgar Square]



The first photo of Trafalgar Square, below, shows Bert and Katie Fisher outside their house  (I did not have this picture when I did the interview).

m3011-bert-and-katie-fisher-at-trafalgar-square

The next two photos are the ones we looked at during the interview. They were perhaps taken when demolition was imminent. The Square consisted of 16 houses in two rows, on the east side of Maldon Road. The first photo has the Park in the background.

x0068-trafalgar-square x0639-trafalgar-square


Q:    I think they were probably, when they were thinking of pulling them down, they were quite recent weren’t they?  It’s at the back probably is it?

Mrs B:    Yes, I can’t tell these views, I know ‘em we lived in the row across that way.  (Q:  Yea.) We had two houses right in the centre, but this generally shows all the old sheds and gardens (Q:  That’s right, yes.) what we got. (Q:  That’s a bit mean, isn’t it?) [Laughter] (Q:  Because they looked quite nice, they looked as if they were quite solid houses?)  Oh, they were good old houses, well, years ago they did, they built them better didn’t they?

Q:    You said you had two didn’t you?

Mrs B:    We had a double house, yes, we had two front doors, but they were knocked into one (Q:  Yea.) and erm we had like, two front rooms, two kitchens, ‘cause they knocked, and the same upstairs, they knocked so you could go right through.

Q:    Was that especially for you?  (Mrs B:  Hm?)  Especially for your family?

Mrs B:    Me mother, yes, she moved out of a four, two bedroomed ones, seeing she had a big family, so she had to go into a, she went into a double one, they did that then.  (Mrs S:  Do you want another look?  [Laugh])  I can’t really tell what it is because it don’t show the entrance or …. (Q:  Not all that good are they?)

Q:    So, what, you had two, so you had four bedrooms in the end?)

Mrs B:    We did, four bedrooms and four downstairs, yes.

Q:    So, still a, with ten of you that’d still be quite a lot wasn’t it?  That must be somebody’s back gardens mustn’t it, did you have much garden there?

Mrs B:    Nice garden in the front, we had, me dad had a beautiful garden, beautiful flower garden.

Q:    Did he grow flowers did he?  (Mrs B:  Hm?)  Did he grow flowers mainly?

Mrs B:    Yes, all sorts.

Q:    What, did he grow vegetables and things more or ….?

Mrs B:    Yea, well, we had a big allotment and he used to grow his celery at home (Q:  Yea.) erm, used to have a flower garden all the way down, wide piece, and round like that, both sides (Q:  Yea.) and then at the back of the, then he had tall chrysanths, then at the back he used to have a celery, two celery trenches, one either side, then he used to grow white and pink celery, they used to be them days, that was lovely.  Course, we had, course we had to take all our celery up weekends, then he had the allotment for all the vegetables he grew, you know, grew all his own vegetables, I forget where the allotment was then, been so many years ago.  (Mrs S:  Wasn’t it down where Mr North ….)  Down Maldon Road somewhere.  (Mrs S: Not North, Mr ….the shoe, the shoemaker, Hollick’s). Down there somewhere, Grace, couldn’t tell you exactly where it was now, I forget, but I know we had a big allotment, (Mrs S:  Yes.) used to grow stuff for all the winter, (Mrs S:  Course there’s so many houses down there isn’t there?) and store it all.  Hey?  (Mrs S:  So many houses built down there now.)  Mm, he used to clamp all his erm, oh, dear, (Mrs S:  Potatoes.) no, not potatoes (Mrs S:  Beetroot.) yes, beetroot and parsnips, used to clamp all them up with straw and earth (Q:  Yea, yea.) and then you just got ‘em out when you want ‘em.

Q:    So you wouldn’t have to buy much then?

Mrs B:    Mother, I don’t think my mother had to buy, we didn’t, did we?  (Mrs S:  No, not really [???].)  My husband, we had (Mrs S:  [???], Church Street.) we erm, we never bought a thing hardly, now and again we’d buy a swede wouldn’t we?  (Mrs S:  No[?] swede.)  But otherwise we never bought no potatoes or onions and everything used to be, you know, kept and, my husband used to go Sunday mornings cut the greens for the dinner all fresh.  We had Brussels sprouts or, all sorts and Mr Springett done the same.

Q:    What did your mother do for the rest of the food, sort of, did you have much meat and that sort of thing?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, we had plenty.  My dad was a carpenter and she had one, I was of a second, well, not a second family, but there was one lot grown up working (Q:  Mm.) and three or four of us went to school.  (Q:  Yes, so she, when you, by the time you were grown up there was more money, yes?)  By the time I was about ten, I’d got, erm, two or three, I got three brothers working (Q:  Yea.) and a sister, she married and I got a brother married down there and going to get on, you know.

Q:    What, was your dad away or something?  (Mrs B:  Hey?)  I wondered why there was a gap in the family, was your dad away?

Mrs B:    No, he wasn’t, there wasn’t really a gap (Q:  Yea.)  Mm, (Q:  Just so many I suppose?)  There were, yea, there was so many you see, one lot, by the time mother had finished having babies she got a grown up family.  (Q:  Yea.) erm, no, there were, she lost one between my brother what lived in Mill Lane, and erm, him and, that were between him and erm, John and, she lost one daughter didn’t she, then, Alice, at eighteen months, or fourteen months, when she, with a convulsion fit, and then she had another one, she named that the same, Alice, because one had died, you know, but erm, there was a big family of us.

Q:    So she wouldn’t get much spare time then?

Mrs B:    She never had any I don’t think.  (Q:  No.)  Then they, they always used to make all their shirts, work shirts, they were striped blue. (Q:  Really?  Mm, mm.)  My sister used to make erm, used to make all our nightdresses and things like that, you know, well, me mum had one of those machines what dropped in beside the table (Q:  Yea.) my sister used to do all the machining, made all their work shirts, you know, for work.  White ones, they used to have the white ones with the blue stripes didn’t they?  (Mrs S:  Yes, Oxford, didn’t they call them?)  Hey?  (Mrs S:  Did they call them Oxford shirt?)  (Q:  Oxford shirt?)  I forget, Grace.  My memory ain’t so good as that used to be.

Q:    So what about dresses and things like that, for the girls, did you make them, did you make those as well?

Mrs B:    No, we used to, mother used to have them made.  (Q:  She’d have them made?)  best ones, I tell you where she used to have ‘em made, somebody down erm Guithavon Street.  Always had the best dresses made and then when we had a new lot well, we’d take them on for school, you know (Q:  I see, yea.)  and you always had button boots them days, right up to your knees [Laughter].

Q:    Would you get them made as well?

Mrs B:    No, buy them, the best, we used have like a soft kid, they were ever so soft you could roll them up, you know and there were three girls, my sister, there was only 3½ years between the three of us (Q:  Yea.), two years and a month between my sister what lives at Ilford and only eighteen months between her and the other one what died.

Q:    So when, you say you wore your second best for school (Mrs B:  Mm.) what would you wear your best for, for Sundays?

Mrs B:    Just Sundays, we used to have to go to Sunday school in the morning.  (Q:  Did you, yes?)  (Mrs S:  Church.)  Church, then out, out at Sunday school, into church, before, and we used to have to go to Sunday school in the afternoon if we wanted, we weren’t allowed to play Sundays and erm, sometimes my mum would go at night, Sunday evening, not very often, but now and again she always used to, she used to like chapel best, used to go to the Congregational down the High street.  (Q:  Yea.)

Q:    Do you mean she went to both or she went, she just went to the ….?)

Mrs B:    No, just went to Congregational.

Q:    Did your father go as well?

Mrs B:    No, dad never went.  No.

Q:    What was your mother’s name before she was married, was she a Witham person, your mother?

Mrs B:    Yes, Shelley.

Q:    She was a Shelley was she?

Mrs B:    Mm, they used to live, well, where Sorrell’s the butchers, well, that’s a hairdressers now on the corner, er, down right opposite the Crotchet [143 Newland Street].  (Q:  Yes, I know, yes.)  That used to be a butcher’s shop.  (Q:  Yea.)  Well, up there there was four cottages, (Q:  Yea.) my mother’s mother lived up there.   (Q:  Really?)  We used to go up there to see me granny, you know, before me mum took her to live with us.  (Q:  Yea.)  Yea.

Q:    What did her father do, do you remember?  (Mrs B:  Hey?)  Do you know what her father used to do for a job?

Mrs B:    No, I’ve heard her say he used to do the pigs and that, kill ‘em, you know, and do ‘em for the butcher.  (Q:  Yes.)  Yea.

Q:    But then your grandmother came to live in ….?

Mrs B:    She lived, my mother took her in at the finish because she was bed ridden, she, I remember her living with us, she had one of the front rooms and dad put a curtain up from the door (Q:  Mm.) a little way along a big, I remember that was a big green curtain with big tassels on, just cover the bed if anybody come to the door.  We had like two front rooms, we had another front room, but that was kept, nobody went in there, no, you know, kept what you call a best room, you know (Q:  Yea.)  They don’t do that today.

Q:    Not so much, some people do, don’t they?

Mrs B:    Mm, I used, I never used my front room, much, you used yours more (Mrs S:  Yes.) ‘cause you used to have more parties than what I did (Mrs S:  Yes, that’s right.) didn’t you, up Church Street.  (Q:  Gay life you had, did you?)  [Laughter]

Mrs B:    That got used a lot when the girls were courting and the boys (Q:  Oh, really?) there wa’nt so much room in the kitchen and we used to light a fire in there and they used to sit in there (Q:  Mm.) because we hadn’t got a lot of room, you know, not in the very small kitchens we had didn’t we?  (Mrs S:  Yes.  they were cosy.)  When you were all in it, you couldn’t move (Mrs S:  They were cosy.)  Hey?  (Mrs S:  They were cosy.)  Oh, yea, my husband wouldn’t go nowhere else.  (Mrs S:  No.)  If, I had to have the sweep, he used to moan, he hated sitting in the front room, he had a mantle piece and a side, there was a cupboard and we had a sideboard of it, you know, put a cover on it and had ornaments on, he’d got nowhere to put his tobacco tin he said, he had all them places, he just used to sit in the corner in his armchair in the kitchen, a little recess up there and his tobacco tin on the window sill (Q:  Yea.) and he just liked that best, he hated the front room, couldn’t bear it.  (Q:  Yea.)  He said ‘You get it straight.’  I said, ’Well, you stop in here for the day now.’ and then light the fire in the kitchen in the morning after the sweep had been and got all cleared up, ‘cause they were terrible chimneys weren’t they?  (Mrs S:  Yes, they were.)  Oh, we had to have the sweep about every three months you wanted the sweep, smoke, used to get smoked out.

Q:    So you had, erm, you had a front room and best room at a, when you were little as well did you?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, well, as long as I can remember, you know.

Q:    Did you, did you, was that used for courting as well or ….?

Mrs B:    No, I don’t think so, I don’t remember my brothers courting, I was too young, you know.  I remember me sister getting married.  (Q:  Do you, Yea?)  I don’t remember George getting married or Ted, I remember Emily getting married.

Q:    Was that the Congregational?

Mrs B:    No, they were married at church, and they were all christened at church.  (Q:  Were they, Yea?)  Yea.

Q:    Was that a big do?

Mrs B:    Well, I don’t, well, we, I remember I was in service when one of them married, which one would that be?, and we come home, I had to get half the time off to come home, we were bridesmaids, mm.  (Mrs S:  I didn’t know you, not them days did I?)  No, and I remember being bridesmaids when we were younger, that must have been to one of me brothers, we was dressed in blue.  (Q:  Yea.)  Me and my sister at Ilford had our dresses made exactly the same (Q:  Yea.) and the one what was 3½ years younger, she had hers made a little bit younger, with the pocket hanging on ribbon, do you remember, when they used to have them.  (Mrs S:  Yes, they did.)  Used to have a little pocket hanging on ribbon, you know, always remember that.  We all had our photos taken down at Mr Hayward’s, he used to live opposite the church then in Guithavon Street here.  I remember my mother taking Esmond, he was in dresses still then, curly hair, and there was me brother John, me, Alice and Lil[?] and Esmond was sitting on her lap. Ever so old fashioned. The hats they used to wear, our mothers, the dresses were touching the ground, weren’t they, used to have brush stuff round them like a little fluffy, brush stuff on the bottom. And Esmond had dresses on and bows of ribbon at the shoulders, they used to put bows of ribbons through and tie ‘em, didn’t they.

______________________________

 

Tape 006. Mrs Edie Brown (nee Hawkes) and Mrs Grace Springett (nee Bishop), sides 3 and 4

Tape 6

Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett were both born in about 1895, and were interviewed on 24 January and 4 March 1977, when they lived at 13 and 9 Rex Mott Court, Witham.

They both appear also on tapes 5 and 8, and  Mrs Brown is also on tape 54.

For more information about Mrs Brown, see the the notes in the people category headed Brown, Mrs Edie, nee Hawkes.

For more information about Mrs Springett, see the the notes in the people category headed Springett, Mrs Grace, nee Bishop.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

See the end of Tape 5 for notes about Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett

______________________________________________

Side 3

Q:    How old would he[?] be, as we’ve been saying, the brothers, (Mrs B: Went to school in dresses.) Went to school in dresses?

Mrs B:    Yes, ‘cause the school was next door to where we, the Square [Trafalgar Square], there was the, I don’t know what they use it for now? (Q: I think it’s a community centre.) Yea, (Mrs S: [???]) (Q: They use it for meetings.) I remember taking him to school ‘cause we lived just right near it and then later on we went to the Church School, we all went to the Church School when we got older, they changed us over, in fact, she sent us there ‘cause that was next door and we were tiny and with having a big family and men working, hadn’t got time to take us all the way to school and, ‘cause, I mean, (Q: She didn’t keep you at the erm, I wonder why she didn’t keep you at the erm?) Because we belonged Church, we was all christened at Church you see (Q: Even though she went to the Chapel?) Well, she did if she went, but weren’t very often, she never had the time with the family she had, you know, not when, them days, you never had no tinned stuff to give to everything, you had to do, didn’t you, I mean, you had no tins of peas you could open or anything like that. (Q: Would you say there were different sorts of people belonged to the Church and belonged to the Chapel?) Well, I dunno, (Mrs S: Not really.) I mean, they varied, people, don’t they, I mean, you see (Q: I know they do now, I think I’ve read, in those days, sometimes, one group of people would go to Chapel and one to the Church, I wondered if it was like that in Witham?) No, I don’t think so.

Mrs S:    My father belonged to the Salvation Army, he was a sergeant major at Tiptree, but he could go on taking meetings at chapel or anywhere, he did do, he had a lovely bible presented to him from Christian Endeavour, you don’t hear of that now, do you, but my sister’s got that bible [???], read texts from, I believe he come to Witham chapel once and we had a pastor at Kelvedon, you see, that’s how he done that.

Q:    When you went to Sunday school that was the erm, which one was that, that was the Church?

Mrs B:    Yea, well, they took us, (Q: The children.) well, in Church we never, we went into the school. (Q: For the Sunday school?) Yes, used to be every day school, went in there for our lessons, like we do lessons, then they’d sing little hymns then we used to march into the Church (Q: Yes, so you went to the Church, not the Chapel?) then we went in the Church next door [All Saints, Guithavon Street], you know. (Q: You didn’t go to Chapel so much?) No, I didn’t, I didn’t go to the Chapel unless mother went and she took us, but that was only now and again, you know ….(Mrs S: What did you do one Sunday in Church?) Hey? (Mrs S: What did you do one Sunday in Church?) [Laughter] (Mrs S: Come on, tell us!) I was eating a sherbet dab [Laughter] and the parson fetched me out, right in front of everybody in the church, like they were sitting on the front pew, you know, like there was nothing in front of them and me Sunday, me school teachers, they was Miss Peaks then, there was three of ‘em, three sisters, they were all old maids, they used to live in the house in the, there was a house in the school yard. I thought I’d should get wrong when I go to school tomorrow and if anybody tells me mum I should get a damned thrashing, you know [Laughter], it weren’t like, I mean, she weren’t with the children, stricter them days, they were stricter with children than what they are today, although my son’s ever so strict with his children, but I mean, you, you got a good hiding in them days if you don’t, if kids, kids only get a pat today don’t really get a hiding, you know, and he took the sherbet dab away from me, I never got it back! [Laughter] We always used to get a halfpenny or a penny between us when we went, but we was supposed to spend it when we come out of church, course we spent it before we went in, I was finishing mine off [???] [Laughter] and then, you won’t remember, Miss Vaux, (Mrs S: No, she [???]) she was old maid, she lived in Collingwood Road, I believe there were a couple of sisters there, and my dad was a carpenter and he used to go all over the place, these big houses, working, you know, and sometimes the gardener would give him beautiful apples ooh, lovely they were, I remember my mother one Sunday morning, she give us one each, three sisters, there was me, I was the oldest of the three, then me sister Alice next to me, then we all went out together on a Sunday. Course we took these apples to school, never ate ‘em, they were great big things, always remember it, we got ‘em took away from us at Sunday school and going home from school to dinner on the Monday, there was Miss Vaux with a little fancy basket with a big handle with these three apples in it [Laughter] – taking them down to me mother, I thought ‘Oh, we’re gonna get wrong this dinner time.’ I was. oh, I thought meself, I never liked her after that.
[5 minutes]

Q: What, she took them, took them back to your mum did she?

Mrs B:    Took ‘em back to me mum and got ‘em in a little basket, carrying ‘em so nicely down the garden path. (Q: So you shouldn’t have took ‘em?) I thought ‘ooh’. [Laughter] We hadn’t told me mother we’d had ‘em took off us, we dare not, ooh, I don’t know, I done all sorts, always getting wrong somewhere. In service an’ all, I never stopped in service, always run away, I, I never liked service, too much of a tie, you gotta do this, you gotta do that, you mustn’t do this, you mustn’t do that, you wanna post a letter, if the pillar box was about from here to that door you gotta knock on the door say could you go and post it. [Laughter] My mother spoilt me a bit and I think, you know, at the finish she never sent me, I never went, oh, I went dozens of places and I come home every time.

Q:    I suppose it was a bit like school, were they very strict at school?

Mrs B:    Fairly, yes.

Q:    Did you like it at school?

Mrs B:    Well, I was like everybody else, I didn’t think much of school really, course we left early them days, we left when I was thirteen or fourteen we left, we had to go straight out to service.

Q:    Do you remember anything they taught you at school? Do you remember what sort of things they used to teach you at school?

Mrs B:    Well, same as they teach the children now I think, you know, used to have, used to have singing in the morning, prayers, then singing first thing, the Church school, I don’t know if other schools did it. And then I think you had, you used to have arithmetic first and then singing lessons and all that sort of thing, the same, there was the different classes, you know and the different sets of desks, needlework they taught you how to do buttonholing and all that sort of thing, then I remember once a week we used to have to take stockings to mend, and they showed you how to darn properly, you know, pick one up and one down, one up and one down, leave a loop all the way round, always remember that, we used to take a stocking, that was no good only taking one ‘cause you only had time to do one hole. [Laughter] (Q: That was from home you’d take one, you’d take one from home, you mean?) My children went to the Church school too, yea, ‘cause I had one daughter, well she didn’t go to school much at all, she had osteomyelitis, when she was nine and she was in hospital. (Mrs S: Pretty girl.) She was in hospital till she was, after leaving school age, so she didn’t do any school, but she learned quite a lot in the hospital, she was in with the grown ups, you know, they learned her to knit, she knit lovely clothes didn’t she? (Mrs S: Ooh!) Put the flowers on the back and she knit one, my daughter was expecting a baby she knit some nice little vests, two plain and two purl, the proper little wool vests, you know, oh, she learned quite a lot in hospital, and to write and that, they took, she was at Colchester but they took her right up to Epping Forest near North Weald aerodrome just through the forest, I used to have to go up there every Sunday, that was when they were frightened that (Mrs S: Of being bombed.) the barracks, they were, you know, gonna do anything to the barracks at Colchester, they moved all the patients out of Colchester hospital, what they could move and we didn’t know where she was for a time, we had to wait and find out where she was and then I had to go to, that used to be King’s, that’s where the clock shop is now, isn’t it, I used to, I had to go there to see how we could get there, you know, ‘cause I used to go and see her like Wednesdays and Sundays and we used to go, that left from Cook’s [5 Newland Street], that used to be, then the bus, the long distance and they used to drop us off at the hospital, we used to go right through Epping Forest and drop us off there and pick us up if that come back at night, well in the afternoon time.

Q: That was heard work, though, I should think.  [Noise and laughter.] (Unknown person: Right, where’s your books!) [Taped stopped and re-started]

Q:    Did you used to know Mrs Raven?

Mrs S:    Yes, oh, yes.

Q:    Used to know her? (Mrs S: Edie?)

Mrs S:    Yes.

Mrs B:    Yes, I did, used to have some good old laughs with Edie if I met her down the town. I knew her husband and his father and mother, used to live in Maldon Road, about half way down in some cottages on the, right on the path.
[10 minutes]

Q:    [Looking at photo of view down Maldon Road] I forgot about these, hang on, Maldon Road, that’s a bit different now but I think it’s supposed to be Maldon Road. Does it look familiar? And there’s another one. I couldn’t work out where they were really myself but they said they were Maldon Road, no, it’s so different now.


Maldon Road looking south. Just after 1900
Maldon Road looking south. Just after 1900

Mrs B:    Yes, this is, yes, this is the Asylum [probably long low creamy wall to right of lady] remember what Mr Payne used to, The Retreat [east side], well, they called it, they used to be terrible there, the, that gate was always locked. (Mrs S: That’s all bungalows there now aren’t they? [The Retreat]) Yes, well, now, this Dr Payne he used to live in Witham, one of the Miss Paynes married a Taber didn’t she? (Mrs S: Yes, that’s right.) Well, her father was a doctor, he[?] was doctor to Jeany[?] when I used to take her to Colchester hospital, could hear ‘em all shouting and screaming in the gardens and erm …

This side [right foreground] was North’s and erm (Mrs S: Hairdresser.) and these little cottages here, this little wall here [far left] that was the start here of what is now, where you can get all the wood and stuff [Travis Perkins] (Mrs S: Oh, yea.) yea, there, then there was a row of cottages there [behind the people], Florrie [???] mother used to live in.

And over here [far right] was old Toddy North’s shop and there used to be a greengrocer’s shop as well there, then just here somewhere [right side, where tree behind] was, you could go up a yard and out near The Eagle hotel, you know, The Spread Eagle, there.

And there’s the start, there’s the Square down there [Trafalgar Square] [left of road, beyond the Retreat wall], there’s Dazley’s house [Nelson House], that’ll be, and the [British] school’s between here somewhere, yea, ‘cause past there, course they’ve built now, there was, was no houses hardly on erm this side of the road, not when you got passed the Square, but now they’ve built all the way down and, yes, I can see where that is.

Q:    Dr Payne, did he do general doctoring or was it mostly just the asylum?

Mrs B:    Hospital doctoring. (Q: Hospital mostly was it?) He was private, yes, ‘cause he was my, Jeanie[?], the one that I lost, he was her doctor at Colchester hospital, well, him and one or two others used to see her, you know. (Mrs S: It’s interesting looking at some of the old ones, you know.) Yea.

Q:    What about, when, I remember when we all came here and sat round you were telling us what used to happen when you were poorly, when you were little, the camphor and everything, talking about doctors, when you and your brothers and sisters were poorly, when you were little, what, did you used to have any other, what did your mother used to do to get you better?

Mrs B:    Oh, I had doctors. (Q: Doctors mostly?) He used to come. (Q: Did you used to go round there or did he ….?) He used to come round, Dr Gimsons come to the house, yea, when my, when dad, well when they, they were the only doctors in Witham then really, ‘cause that Dr Payne used to go to hospitals a lot and he had a private practice and he had to have a sign on, that was his with all the patients there (Mrs S: Had padded rooms there.) Hey? (Mrs S: They had padded rooms there didn’t they? Padded rooms.) Yea, they did do yes, yes [i.e. at the asylum at the Retreat]

Q:    Where did the people come from for there, from all over I suppose?

Mrs B:    From all over the place I expect, I don’t know, but they, you never see any of them out, they weren’t, they were all, you know, locked in, the gates and that were locked, and the gardens, they used to go out in the gardens, ‘cause we lived right near it, we could hear ‘em shouting down our place What was that boy[?]what lived down Powers Hall End[?], do you remember? (Mrs S: Yes, yes.) I mean, he was up Powers Hall End[?] and that was sort of [???] right across the fields where we used to live up the [???} we could hear him sometimes shouting over our place, couldn’t we? (Mrs S: Yes, yes.) Right over, right over Church Street, course when they’re like that sometimes they make such a noise, shouting, don’t they, poor things (Q: I suppose they didn’t have the drugs and things.) (Mrs S: No.) (Q: Nowadays I suppose they give them drugs and things to quieten them?) Well, they do, quieten ‘em down with drugs, they never had the drugs them days, did they?

Q:    Did you get much medicine or anything that you remember?

Mrs B:    Well, you know, medicine and anything, you know. (Mrs S: two and six a bottle, wasn’t it?) Hey? (Mrs S: Half a crown a bottle.) Yes, she used to have to pay for it, yea.

Q:    Was it you who was telling us about having the camphor, somebody I know who was here was telling us about having camphor round their necks, did you have that?

Mrs B:    Oh I did, and I hated it, and I hated the (Mrs S: Mrs Nicol was it?) a lot of people believed in different things round their necks. (Q: Did they?) (Mrs S: Do go to Mrs Nicol]?) (Q: I’ve talked to her once, a week or two back, yes.) Yes, I’ve heard of people doing that but I couldn’t bear the smell of it, especially when they put the clothes away and they come out and smelt of camphor.

Q:    But your family didn’t used to do that sort of thing?
[15 minutes]

Mrs B:    Oh, mother had them I expect, I don’t know I remember, but she always, you know they always had something in with the clothes didn’t they years ago, ’cause you never hear of them used not now, well nearly everything now the moth don’t get in things now because they won’t get in only certain things, well today the stuff what you buy like these sort of things they won’t, they don’t get in do they, they don’t, ‘cause I remember I had a wool two-piece once, that was a brown one, with a skirt and a cardigan, you wore a blouse with it, you know, it was ever so nice, when you pulled it out it had like a silver mark in between ‘cause that stretched and I wore the cardigan once and I had a chiffonier[?] in my front room and I folded it up and just laid it inside there, would lay there, I left it in there for a couple of weeks I reckon, instead of putting it up, and do you know when I got it out a moth had got in it and eaten three or four holes, little tiny pin holes in the front, you couldn’t, moths were a nuisance them days, but now you get sprays and all that sort of thing, you don’t, you don’t get ‘em today, not like you used to. (Q: There isn’t so much wool is there?) No, they don’t eat the stuff you see, no.

Q:    Changing the subject, you said you worked at the glove factory, I remember didn’t you?

Mrs B:    Oh, yea.

Q:    Was that after you’d given up service?

Mrs B:    Yea, mm.

Q:    How did you get to …?

Mrs B:    I got the sack from there.

Q:    What, from the glove factory, tell us about that then?

Mrs B:    Well, for cheeking Miss Pinkham, well, I didn’t really cheek her, she, there was a spot, you’d see, when they made those gloves them days one done one thing, one done the fingers, one done something else and I done the binding round here, slip[?] piece and binding, there’s a dozen gloves you used to have to do for so much, didn’t get much I can tell you, talk about slave labour, you got hardly anything and I, there was a spot of oil on the, I should have reported it when I had them, and she said that was me and I said it wasn’t me I said that was on when I got them, and she said, that ooh, that was me, I said well that wasn’t me and I course I would have my way, so she said take your cards, take your cards, I said I thought meself well give me me cards, I’ll be glad to get out, I finished up at sorting seeds at the Cooper Taber’s, I went there for a long while, I nearly got the sack. (Mrs S: Then you got in trouble for singing.) I did, I got the sack and the women said well if Edie gets the sack we’ll all stop so I didn’t get the sack and they used to say to me ‘Sing’, you know, and I used to sing away all the song, course that annoyed the men and women in the office underneath, I expect they couldn’t get on with their work or they thought they couldn’t, poor old Freddie Springett …. (Mrs S: No relation!) [Laughter] The latch.

[Unknown person: Sorry to interrupt the interview.]

Mrs B:    The latch needs to go up.

[Tape switched off]

Mrs B:    Poor old mum, I think I used to worry her, my other sisters stopped in service for years on end. Emily, she stopped with one old chap and when they moved away they wanted her to go with them to Bournemouth, I forget now whether she went or not and me sister, Lil, worked in Collingwood Road at, where Dr Ted and Dr Karl [Gimson] used to go, what was that nurse’s name? Roberts (Mrs S: Roberts. Yes.) as she worked there for years, Lil did, she, they all stuck service, and me sister at Ilford, she was in service, ooh, right from when she left school she went up there, she married up there, and lived up there, well she lives up there now, I don’t know where, haven’t heard from her for ages.

Q:    So going back to the seeds, was that the same sort of thing you, Grace told me you used to sort the seeds? (Mrs B: We done ‘em at home.) You used to do it at the factory as well, did you?

Mrs B:    Yes, well we did ‘em for Cullen then, not for Cooper Taber, they used to have the women there to work, Cooper Taber’s did.

Q:    So Cooper Taber’s was where you were singing was it?

Mrs B:    Yea, and ‘erm …

Q:    Was that the same place it is at …(Mrs S: Cullen’s.) Cooper Taber’s was, (Mrs B: It was a different place.) where abouts was that?

Mrs B:    That’s, round the Avenue Road innit, (Q: Where it is now, yes?) well, it was, but I think they got a new place now.

Q:    That was where you went to work was it?

Mrs B:    That’s where I went, but Cullen’s … (Q: Were there a lot of people at Cooper Taber’s?) Well, several, there was a whole, oh, I should think there was about twenty women there working.

Q:    But that was seeds, not …?

Mrs B:    All sitting in rows, great big windows in the front and erm, peas what we sorted, there were pieces of wood there, we all had our heap of peas, you know, and then there was a slot, like that, in your bench, you used to have a high stool and as you took the bad ones from the good ones you draw the good ones down into the sack underneath and erm the bad ones were weighed up and you got, well, measured up, and you got so much for how many, you know, bad ones you had, that’s what you got paid for. (Q: What, the number of bad ones you picked out?) Yes, you didn’t get much I can tell ya. (Q: How much was it, can you remember?) About ten, twelve bob a week, never got much those days(Q: How old were you then?) Ooh, I was getting on then, I must have been sixteen I should think, ooh, sixteen getting on.
[20 minutes]

Q:    So you had a lot of jobs then before you were sixteen?

Mrs B:    Yea, I did have.

Q:    So you couldn’t have been at the glove place for very long then?

Mrs B:    No, I wasn’t there very long, I got on all right with the work, but there’s just the, she, they were snobs, she was especially, she was an old maid and she was ever so funny old lady.

Q:    She had a lot to do with the factory did she?

Mrs B:    She was always stuck there, nobody liked her, you know, she used to interfere, she was there more than the sons, didn’t see the sons much, see Bert, ‘cause he, he run the factory, er, Bert Pinkham, he used to live in Collingwood Road, ‘cause he had two or three sons, didn’t he? (Mrs S: Yes. Was it two or three?) I forget, Grace, I know there was two or three, but, I used to go to the pea shed and worked there, then, of course I worked, the War [First World War] broke out, worked on munitions down at, ooh, I forget the name of the place, the maltings, (Q: Oh, in Maltings Lane?) yea, (Q: Nitrovit now isn’t it?) hey? (Q: Is it Nitrovit now?) no, no, Nitrovit’s down, oh, what’s the name of that road? Maltings Lane. (Mrs S: Yes, That is where Nitrovit’s is.) Nitrovit’s is, but where I was down, you go down by the railway, there’s a railway siding isn’t there? (Q: Oh, Baird’s, was it?) Yes, that’s right, yea, that was there, that’s where we were on munitions, yea, we used to unload all shells and bomb cases, they were all cases, they all had to be cleaned, all the rust took off and all cleaned and, some of them were painted and then sent back into the [???] to be filled, I don’t know why they took the trouble to paint ‘em, they were all painted, the shells, the big shells, yea.

Q:    So you were doing all different jobs, or mostly just … .

Mrs B:    Yea, they give you all sorts of jobs, unloading the trucks (Mrs S: Didn’t you go to Hoffman’s?) that was, oh, yes, I got married (Mrs S: I believe you was there the same time as I was, at Hoffman’s.) yea, well, I got married erm, my husband belonged, erm, Sunderland and he was in Witham House [57 Newland Street], that was called then, that’s a bank now, opposite Farthing’s, well, he was officer’s batsman there and I got married at Witham Church and erm, we had a bit of a party in the canteen up there, you know, I remember Stan coming down with a big basket of strawberries and the horse was frightened, that was going round and round in circles coming down the road, you know, yes, I got married from there.

Q:    Which canteen, you said you had a party in the canteen?

Mrs B:    The canteen belong the factory where we used to go over, the munition factory, well, then, he went away to Aldershot, well, that was at a holiday time, the trains were terrible to get anywhere. I went down to Aldershot over the Easter, he got me somewhere, a room like and course I stopped over me time so, course I got the sack (Q: From the munitions?) yes, ‘cause you couldn’t do what you liked then, so they said take your cards, I went straight up to Hoffman’s that day and, Chelmsford, that day and got on at Hoffman’s and I worked there right up to Stan come out the army and I went up the north.

Q:    So how did you first meet him, just knocking about the town?

Mrs B:    Yea, just in the town, used to be standing outside the Witham House, you know, ‘cause soldiers had that all different, thousands[?] of soldiers, officers used to have that, officers batsman all slept there.

Q:    Did they have a lot of places in Witham, the soldiers, did … ?

Mrs B:    They were all over the place, they had The Avenue, didn’t they, for the horses and going down Collingwood Road on the left as you go down, that’s all houses there now, they used to be just meadows there and you could see the soldiers all cooking there, got all their things built, you know, what they cook with. [Laugh]
[25 minutes]

Q:    I suppose a good few from Witham would go off to the War did they, (Mrs B: Hey?) I suppose a good few from Witham would go off to the war, would they?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, it was packed with soldiers all the time, people had ‘em, they were billeted on different people, you know, some would take one, some would take two or three, whatever room they’d got.

Q:    Did some of your friends go off fighting as well (Mrs B: Hmm?) I suppose some of your friends would go off fighting as well, would they?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, a lot of people we knew, you know, me brothers were there, my brother John and he got, they sent for him to come home when my mum was dying and he had that mustard gas, they used to use it, affected his chest, you know, yea, and the other married brother was out in France, they sent for him to come home too, ‘cause they did for anything like that, you know, but me brother John got home, didn’t get home quite in time, mother died just before he got home, ‘cause they had to come right from France, they’d get their leave, the doctors used to get them home, didn’t they, I think they used to send them, yea, my mother died during the War, yea.

Q:    So that would make it quite a different place during the War then, I should think (Mrs B: Hmm?) quite a strange place during the war, Witham, wouldn’t it, yea?

Mrs B:    That was a busy place ‘cause I mean it was all soldiers and then the Americans came and (Q: Some in Witham were there?) ooh, crowds, yea. My daughter there was engaged to an American, Jean, yea (Mrs S: She’d got her papers signed and everything.) she was going there, but I don’t think she, that, she, I don’t know how they signed her papers, not with the complaints she had, but I was glad she didn’t go, because she, just before she was twenty-one this complaint hadn’t really left and she died when she was just, before she was twenty-one, she died the 2nd February and she would have been twenty-one May 4th so, if she had gone out there I would never have been able to got out to America, so, but she was, she’d had that illness from when she was about nine, wasn’t she (Mrs S: Yes.) when she first went to hospital. We was in the pea fields, do you remember? (Mrs S: Yes, that’s right.) and she’d got her coat on and she felt cold and I had to the doctors next morning, her legs had swollen and they sent her straight away to hospital, ooh, she was, they operated all over her, legs opened, arms, back of her neck, one leg was opened right from, the front there right up to here, had it in plaster (Mrs S: Terrible scars, right up to here, didn’t she?) she had ‘em all up her arm here, onto here, she had her arm, had to sleep with her arm in this thing (Mrs S: Sling.) so she couldn’t put it down, she had a rough time, but she got [???] over it didn’t she, she went to work at the glove factory, would go, and she could have had some work to do at home, but no, she wanted to go to the glove factory, but, gotta be more careful she went to school, she was so pleased she was going to school ‘cause she’d never been to school really, she was about twelve, she come home and she went to school, I bought her a little case and I got her, she’d got nothing to fit her because she’d been in hospital so long, you know, and I got her a little navy blue nap coat and little beret and scarf and everything, she went to school, she distracted everybody in the school, she had to write a hundred lines, so she wouldn’t go no more, I [???] ‘cause they couldn’t make her go to school, you see, because after her illness she hadn’t got to get a knock but she didn’t go to school long, she soon got fed up with that.
[general chat]

Side 4

Q:    When I was going last time, you just started telling me about your mum and how much money, how little money she had to live off (Mrs B: Oh, yes.) I think you were just telling me, you were trying to remember how much she had really?

Mrs B:    My brothers used to pay seven and six board then.

Q:    Did they? that was the ones that were working? (Mrs B: Yea.) Did they, and they kept the rest did they, give her the seven and six?

Mrs B:    Well, they didn’t have much did they, them days? (Q: Well, no.) they never earned the money, and erm, and I don’t think she got about a guinea a week off me dad, (Q: Really?) not when he was working, he was a carpenter, I mean, he used to like a drink and, I mean, they liked cig, smoke a pipe they used to smoke them days, they never smoked so many cigarettes.

Q:    No, so how would they arrange it, would he give her, like now, housekeeping would he? (Mrs B: Hey?) He’d give her so much housekeeping you think, and keep the rest?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, (Q: So it would be just about a guinea.) Mm, never had much them days.

Q:    And then, how much off the, how many brothers would there be bringing, that would be the, (Mrs B: I had the ….) that was bringing in that amount?

Mrs B:    Well, I had some married when I remember, I had erm, three at home, three brothers, (Q: Yes.) they were living at home, the others were married, Ted was married, George was married and Emily was married, but me brothers, I had three other brothers living at home, er, working (Q: Yea, so she had, sort of, some off them and then off your dad, yea?) and erm, course I was the next one, I was still at school when they were working, till I left school, but erm, you don’t erm, you know, there’s such a, well, you had such a lot happen when you’re young, you don’t always think about it do you? (Q: Well, you don’t, no.) (Mrs S: You’re younger than them and, you know, you don’t realise until ….) (Q: And you don’t know what everybody else has do you?) No, as things are now it’s terrible.

Q:    Did your dad work for a firm or for somebody else or? (Mrs B: Who?) Your dad, or on his own?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, he worked at, that used to be Lewis’s, years ago, that was in the town, know where the wine shop is [66 Newland Street] (Q: Near Farthings [68 Newland Street?) Farthings, well, my dad used to go up there and turn down a yard [now Coach House Way] and he had a place there where he done all his carpentry, you know, made different things, and then he used to go out to, er, these toffs’ houses, big houses and erm do jobs there, all sorts of jobs, used to go all over the place, for Lewis and Sons that was then, well I don’t know whether that was when dad worked there, (Mrs S: I should think so.) that was Lewis when me brothers both worked there, because Fred worked there as well (Mrs S: Mm, I don’t remember much about that.) and then there was somebody else took it, forget his name now, but I remember ‘em changing over (Mrs S: Yea.) from Lewis’s, erm me sisters, course they all went to service, or me married sister, she, I remember her getting married, I was in service then at Ilford and er, she was the oldest daughter like, the others were, all the older ones were boys (Q: Yea.) and then there was three girls, there was me, my sister at Ilford, she’s two years a month younger than me, and then another sister I lost, she had erm ten children didn’t she, all married round about Witham. (Q: Yea.) She lived up erm, Whitehead’s farm, right up past the water tower [Cressing Road] (Q: Yea. Oh, I know, along there, yea.) and you go up past spinney and she lived right up the fields on a farm there, she lived there ever since her oldest girl was born, she went up there after she was born (Q: Yea.) and lived up there. She come back to Witham round Mill Lane into one of the bungalows and she lost a terrible lot of weight (Q: Really?) at first she wasn’t used to being closed in and she couldn’t stand it and that got on her nerves I think. After living on a farm, open, all fields and everything, she, she never liked it, she died with cancer with just having a tooth out, that was under a tooth, mm, so you never know what you have do you? She went back to the doctors after she had the tooth out, ‘cause that was paining her so much and they sent her to Colchester for radium treatment, but she died, she never lived long after it. Might have lasted longer if she hadn’t had the tooth out, but I expect she was going mad with tooth ache, you know.

Q:    I expect erm, well your mum did pretty well to keep you all, ‘cause it sounds she kept you quite nicely with your clothes and everything? (Mrs B: Yea.) She did pretty well to keep you all, didn’t she?

[5 minutes]

Mrs B:    Me sister used to make all our pinafores, nightdresses and petticoats, but me mum always had a dressmaker, took us to a dressmaker for our best dresses. (Q: Yes, yes.) She used to take us erm, I don’t know where now, I forget the name, but she always had our best frocks made, we, mine and Alice’s used to be exactly the same (Mrs S: Miss Fuller, was it?) Hey? (Mrs S: Was it Miss Fuller?) (Q: Miss Fuller, mm.) (Mrs S: Miss Fuller?) I don’t know, Grace who it was, I forget, but erm, the one what died, me sister, she was, a bit younger, she used to always have hers made on a little younger style, you know, (Q: Yea.) and me and me sister what’s at Ilford, ain’t many of us left now, I’ve got one brother at Brightlingsea, sister at Ilford, that’s all there is innit? Yea, they’ve all died, excepting me sister at Ilford, she’s two years younger than me, my birthday’s 8 December, hers is 8 January, and I’m 81 she’ll be 79, she would be the 8 January, and erm I got a young brother, the youngest one of the lot, at Brightlingsea. (Q: Yea.) He lives there, he’s 70, he was 72, he come and see me, I hadn’t seen him for about 20 years, he come and see me a little while back, I wouldn’t a known him. (Q: Really?) (Mrs S: Oh, I know.) He’d gone grey and I remembered him when he was dark and (Mrs S: Older! [Laugh] I said everybody gets older, don’t they?) That’s what I mean, (Q: People don’t realise, do they?) such a long time, and course I hadn’t seen him for so many years and you just picture ‘em like you see ‘em, you know, but when he come, well!

Q:    What did he used to do? (Mrs B: Hey?) What did he used to do?

Mrs B:    He was on the railway from when he left school. (Q: Oh, was he, mm.) Went to the signal box, went to the signal box as a boy, you know they always have a boy in a signal box, (Q: Yea, I see.) and then he went on and on, he used to drive, train driver. (Q: Oh, right.) When he was made, made redundant several years ago, they made a lot redundant on the railway, didn’t they? (Q: Yea.) Well, he got made redundant, he’s pension age nearly anyway, so he’s got a little job erm, got his pension, and he’s got a little job at a place like Witham, like the corn stores, he does a little part-time job, ‘cause he got a good bit of money being made redundant, ‘cause he’d been there since he left school.

Q:    I remember you said your mum erm, sort of got the job for your other brother at the blacksmith’s and she got jobs for you, (Mrs B: Oh, yea.) did she arrange that for all of you, was it her job to find you work?

Mrs B:    I don’t know whether she found all the others work, but I remember, I say, when me brother went as an apprentice horseshoeing at, down the town, the one down there [130 Newland Street], well he owned it at the finish for a long, long time and erm she said his aprons cost one and six each and that’s all he got a week [Laughter] one and six. She had to get him two leather aprons, one one time and then wait a little while and get him another one, ‘cause they get burnt, you know, the leather, with shoeing.

Q:    It sounds you all got quite good jobs then, in the end?

Mrs B:    Yea, they were all (Q: Fixed up, but I suppose ….) well, labouring, me brothers worked different jobs, you know, on the building and different things (Q: Yea.)

Q:    I remember, was your mother bothered when you went from, into the factory, did you get that job yourself?

Mrs B:    Yes, I went to see about getting that job, ‘cause I was, I couldn’t stop in service, I never liked it.

Q:    Was your mother bothered, or don’t you remember?

Mrs B:    Well, she didn’t think much of it, she said I should never go in a factory, but I did, I never stopped nowhere anyway. [Laugh]

Q:    Which one did you like the best? (Mrs B: Hey?) Which one, which job did you like the best? (Mrs B: None of them.) None of them [Laughter] (Mrs S: The seed factory I reckon.[Laugh])

Mrs B:    It was all right there, ‘cause we used to have a bit of fun then, but then I were getting the sack for singing, ‘cause they used to say to me [Laughter] sing and I used to sing, and that used to annoy the office underneath and poor old Freddie Springett he lived at, he’s dead now, he lived at Rivenhall, (Mrs S: No relation [Laugh].) No relation to you and you know the latches what lift up, and everybody used to stop dead, he used to know that was me, he said ‘Edie, you needn’t come back this afternoon.’ [Mrs S laughing] I thought ‘Oh gawd I got the sack again, I shall get killed when I get home’, so the women said ‘Well, if Edie don’t come back, we don’t come back.’ so I went back ‘cause I used, they used to say if you want to sing all the different songs [???].

Q:    I wonder what, so he didn’t say ‘Right, you can all go.’ then? (Mrs B: Hey?) He didn’t give them all the sack then? (Mrs B: No.) He must have needed them.

Mrs B:    No they couldn’t, they needed the seeds you see.

Q:    Yea, I suppose afterwards you got the sack at erm (Mrs B: Pinkhams.) Pinkhams, but presumably they didn’t, the girls didn’t think to do the same then? (Mrs B: Hey?) The girls didn’t say the same there?

[10 minutes]

Mrs B:    No fear.

Q:    Why, do you think they were more frightened there?

Mrs B:    No, there was a lot there. (Q: Yea.) That was my fault. (Mrs S: There was no other factory for them in Witham, was there?) Hey? (Mrs S: There was no other place for ‘em in Witham, only Pinkhams, wasn’t there?) Oh, they were horrible, horrible to work for they were. That Diane Pinkham, she never married and she was a horrible, ooh, she was the most miserable person I ever see and course I said, she said er, got onto me about this ink on these gloves, well, it was grease, oil off the machine, someone, see ‘cause they went all round the factory, one done fingers, one put the thumbs in, one made the fingers, one done the marks down the back, the fancy marks, another one done the binding, I used to do the binding (Q: Did they have machines or, was it?) machines, yes (Q: Like sewing machines thing or?) all different machines (Q: All different, yea.) and I did the vents, you know, the binding round the, round the thingme, and this er, bundle, er, they were in dozens, erm, had some oil on, and course she said that was me, well I hadn’t touched ‘em, course I said it wasn’t me, I said ‘That was like that when I got ‘em.’ and she said ‘That was.’ I said ‘That was not me.’ and so she said ‘Take your cards.’ I said ‘Oh, give me me cards.’ I told me mother there weren’t the work, I had to tell her something. Everywhere I went in service, I run away, I didn’t stop. But erm, girls don’t go to service today, do they? (Q: No.) There’s no service today, like there used to be, that’s all there was for girls years ago, I mean, you’d gotta learn to work, my mother used to make us turn the bedrooms out and thread the duster all through the, you know where the spring goes on the iron part, used to have to thread the duster all through there and show us, you know, and make us do everything exact, we had to work when we were kids, we all had to do something. Well, course there was nothing else for us, you gotta learn something, you gotta go in service, there’s nothing else for you.

Q:    So she taught you a lot before you went?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, we had to work.

Q:    Did you have a special job that was yours or did it … all sorts?

Mrs B:    All sorts of jobs we had to do, (Q: Yea.) ‘cause them days you, you had chambers [pots] didn’t you, (Mrs S: Yes.) everybody used chambers and one of us had to (Mrs S: I still got mine at home. [Laugh]) (Q: Might come in handy!) I laugh when we stayed at hotel at [???] and there was a little, I went up Cumberland, not the last time, the time before, there was a little thing at the cupboard thing, (Mrs S: [Unheard comment.]) a little cupboard thing near the, near the bed and when we opened that that got great big white chamber in, I swear was as thick as that, great big old heavy thing that was and I thought ‘I ain’t seen one of them lately.’ [Laugh]

Q:    Well, that was your job at home was it, you had to deal with ….?)

Mrs B:    Yes, first of all, used to get a jug of hot water and a cloth and we used to have to go up with a slop pot and empty all slops, empty all the chambers, ‘cause I had brothers at home and there was four bedrooms and put the hot water in, wash ‘em out, dry ‘em up.

Q:    Where did you empty them, was there a, was there a toilet in the …?

Mrs B:    No, right up the yard, (Q: In the yard?) communal toilets, there was two rows belong the whole square (Q: Yea.) and they were back-to-back. (Q: Oh, I see, yea.) The one lot, the row was that way and another row this way, you all had your fastener to your lavatory, you know, but these old posh[?] fashioned wooden ones them days, weren’t lavatories like we got now, you used to have to scrub all the front, the wood and all the top, they were all wood.

Q:    Mm, what, so had your own or you ….?

Mrs B:    Oh, yes, you all had your own (Q: They were all together?) oh, yes, all had your own toilets.

Q:    And that was what, there was no, sort of, weren’t flushing ones or anything? (Mrs B: Hmm?) Weren’t flushing ones?

Mrs B:    Oh, they were flush, (Q: They were?) yea (Q: Oh, I see, yes.) yea, they were flush, there was a big tank right along the top, top and they flushed all the toilets, that was when I was a kid, that was down the Square, had all flush lavatories down there. Up on the farm where my sister was they never, ooh, that was horrible, used to have to go right across the yard, up a corner didn’t we and that, ooh, the smell was terrible, had a little toilet I always remember then a big one, a little one for the children. (Q: Really?) but there was no erm, there was no water flushing there, not in the country.

Q:    So did you have running water at home in the house for washing and that?

Mrs B:    Not indoors, no, we had tap outside. (Q: I see.) Er, one tap to two houses, there was sort of we lived here and Mrs Everett lived there and then we had the tap and the drain there. (Q: Oh, I see.) You know, so you’s, you only just had to come out the door to the tap, yea, that was down the Square, we had one tap between every two houses.

[15 minutes]

Q:    So what would you do for washing clothes say?

Mrs B:    Well, if you had, if, my mum had a water butt, if she had, if we had plenty of rain, she used to use, she had a net over a pipe to strain all the bits so the water was nice and clean, she used to use the soft water, but if not, used to have, fill your copper with the tap water and use your softener and that for washing, you know.

Q:    And the copper was for boiling?

Mrs B:    Yea, copper in the kitchen, out kitchen, we had two kitchens ‘cause we had a double house (Q: Oh, that’s right.) ‘cause me mother had a big family, we had like, the two front doors, front door there and a front door there, you go in one front door, into the kitchen, into another kitchen, into another front room and out, like that, because there was two knocked, they knocked all the doors, (Q: Yea.) you could get all round the house, you know, (Q: Yea.) without coming outside, but she had, double house ‘cause she had a big family, there was several of us.

Q:    Who owned those houses? (Mrs B: Hey?) Who owned the houses, did you know?

Mrs B:    Ooh, I think, forget, old er, tell you who used to come for the rent, old Philip Lee. (Mrs S: What, down the Square?) Down the Square. (Mrs S: Did he?) Yea, that must have been Dean mustn’t it? (Mrs S: Must have been, [???] now, he collected[?] the rent.) I should think so, I don’t remember anybody else, but he used to collect the rents down there, mm.

Q:    Did your dad have to (Mrs B: Hmm?) Did your dad help at all with the house or was he, did your dad help at all with the, in the house?

Mrs B:    Ooh, no. Men them days never done the work. [Laughter] My husband never done much, unless I was, if I was, had one of the children and I weren’t too good when I was ill and that, he’d get up, he’d do the kitchen and I had a great big kitchen, you know, he’d clean that up and do the kitchen as well as me, he’d help me do a lot and he’d turn the mangle for me when I was washing and, ‘cause I’ll always remember him come down the yard one day and I got some pillow cases with flowers on and course that was folded and that was showing through, so he come, got it all mangled and he said ‘Ee, something on here, is that dirt?’ ‘No.’ I said ‘That’s some flowers showing through.’ they were showing through the other part, he thought there was something that was dirty or something. He always used to (Mrs S: Carried for me sometimes.) Hey? (Mrs S: He carried for me sometimes [???]) and I used to have a smoke and used to make me a cigarette and come put it in me mouth at the sink and light it for me and he made me a shade, ‘cause the sun was on the, when you stood there at the window, it used to make you perspire terrible, you know, it used to run off yer, ‘cause you used to, the sink was there and your window was there, me gas stove was there, but of course you got full sun on yer, he made me a shade and, to go down like that, with some stuff and wood and he used to hang it up every time I done me washing, so I was shaded there. Yea, and he used to love, love to mess about, make things, you know, (Q: Yea.) he made erm, when Keith [her son] had, started his business and had the telephone in, he made a box thing on the wall for the telephone to stand on the top and that was all formica top and er, slot underneath, piece underneath, that much, put your books in. Doctor Foster took a fancy to that, he said ‘Right.’[?] well, poor old chap, he made one and er he never got quite finished it, he weren’t well, he had throm, the thrombosis and he was took ill, you know, but erm he nearly finished it, Charlie Hazell took that and used it. Had nearly finished another one, it got a little cabinet in, like, with the doors on. (Mrs S: Did Keith leave it up there?) Hh? (Mrs S: Did Keith leave it up there?) No, I got it in the toilet, in the bathroom, I keep me toilet rolls in and different pills and different things in there, yea, no, I wouldn’t leave that, I said to ‘em ‘I’ll keep that.’ I said, (Mrs S: Oh, the little cupboard thing?) Yea. (Mrs S: I meant the telephone thing.) I expect he left it, ‘cause he’s got his on the wall now, he had a table. (Mrs S: Yea.) but the children wouldn’t leave it alone that was all, so, and, kids running in the hall, you know, he had table with his phone on and they used to get hold of it and talk in it and do all sorts when they were tiny, and they wouldn’t, and that was often off the hook, so he had one put up on the wall so they couldn’t reach it, so, got it on the wall now.

Q:    Your dad didn’t erm, your dad, when you were a kiddy your dad didn’t help do any carpent …., did he do any carpentry at home or anything or work really?

Mrs B:    No, not really, not a lot. He done a lot of gardening. (Q: Oh, yes.) Had a great big allotment and he had a lovely garden at the house, we had a big piece each side, a lovely flower garden, so much flower garden and so much at the back, he used to grow all, grow celery and that at the back of the flowers, he used to have, like high chrysanths all the way round and then that, about that space was all sorts of flowers, we had some lovely [???] didn’t we and he used to have all crocuses and all sorts, lilies, my mum had them coloured lilies with the spots on.

[20 minutes]

Mrs S:    Tiger lilies weren’t they called?

Mrs B:    Yea, lovely they were, she loved her flowers and little rose trees and he used to do all the gardening and he had a big allotment as well (Q: Mm, That would take lot [???].) grow, he used to grow, he used to do all our shoe mending. (Q: Oh, did he?) Mm, dad did, yes, my husband did too, he ….

Q:    Did a lot of people used to do that or was it just? (Mrs B: Hm?) Did a lot of people used to do that I wonder, or was it just he specially, your dad was specially good at it?

Mrs B:    Yes, he was good at it, he had all his different sized feet (Q: Really?) and a bench up the shed with a thing on, what the feet fitted in (Q: I know, yes.) so he could stand up there with the shoes on the proper feet, he had three or four different size feet, because he used to, my husband used to shoe mend, he used to hand sew and all, my husband did, because when I used to buy the children shoes, I used to like them little white buckskin boots, little tiny ones, only had about four buttons, so I generally used to have them for the children, ‘cause they used to like ‘em in white, you know, when they was babies, well, when they running, first running about and er, he said ‘You buy any more of these shoes with stitched soles, I’m not doing ‘em.’, ‘cause he used to take the sole off and when he took the sole off all he got was the upper, he gotta put the whole new (Q: Oh, goodness.) sole on again, and they damped the leather, (Q: Yea.) wet the leather, then they, side where they cut a slot all round like that, all the way round, so you lift, can lift a piece up, well, then when you’ve stitched ‘em you stitch ‘em right through to the upper sole, you know, you see the kids shoes with stitching round the outside and he used to stitch them, used to make his own wax, that was some sort of hemp with some sort of wax and you rolled it and that was sort of, you had two needles, one you put in that way and one this way and pull it, and he used to stitch them soles on and then that little piece what was caught up, that was knocked down and that kept down, you know, after you’d finished and he used to hate doing the children’s shoes when I used to buy them little stitched soles ‘cause he couldn’t nail the soles on, he gotta stitch ‘em. My husband always done all shoe mending (Mrs S: Yea, he did.) Stan did.

Q:    Wouldn’t have much spare time then would he?

Mrs B:    He used to do it in the evenings, he worked in Crittall’s, you know (Q: Yea.) worked in Crittall’s for 33½ years. When we come from the north, see, I lived up Sunderland, South Hilton, near Sunderland, that was only about, them days twopence on the train, that’s all, only just a little way, you know, was like going on a bus from here to Witham, went on a train from South Hilton to Sunderland, that was just a short distance and erm, he always done all the shoe mending for the children, I never, never cost me nothing for shoe mending, used to go and buy his leather and, and erm, when he done some and we was up north he used go and buy a great big, great big piece of leather, you know, and what he could, cut it up for his sizes, what he wanted, he did a lot of people’s shoe mending up there. Well, he done it for a living at one time up there, but, there was the depression after the War, there was so many out of work, people couldn’t even afford to have their shoes mended (Q: Yes, quite.) Was terrible up there then, all the ship yards closed and hundreds, boys eighteen never done a day’s work, just walking about, there was no work, nothing. (Mrs S: [???] nothing to come back to, no doubt, [???])

Q:    Was it, that reminds me, another thing I was going to ask you, in Witham, when you were little, were there any very poor people then? Do you remember?

Mrs B:    Well, there was, they was, difference in the children come to school, some were, at school, used to be dirty them days, children used to be lousy, you know, and the school what do you call it, used to come round, send the poor little kids home and some hadn’t got much to wear, you know, we were lucky really, we was always dressed fairly decent, you know, and always well dressed weekends, we used to have to keep our things for best and our school clothes and different boots for best, we used to have erm, like kid boots for best, high buttoned boots, they were soft, like a glove, you know, like at school course we had bit stronger ones, but erm we always wore pinafores, that’s why I didn’t like it, they always wore ‘em in them days to go to school, nearly always wore pinafores didn’t they?
[25 minutes]

Mrs S:     Yes, I did.

Mrs B:    My sister used to make them, used to have a piece embroidery right over the front, along the front, we used to have to wear one Sundays, see, over our best dresses, you know, but we was always made to go to Sunday school in the morning, there was the Sunday school in the Church, (Mrs S: [???]) in the church, and then out of Church and home and if we wanted to go anywhere else had to go to Church, Sunday school, after dinner, weren’t allowed to play about on a Sunday, not in our good clothes.

Q:    What about Saturdays, what would you do on a Saturday?

Mrs B:    Ooh, shopping. Play about, go out to play down the meadows, down Maldon Road and play in the meadows when we were kids, you know, and every Saturday morning there used to be a, you remember Moore’s buses (Q: Heard of them, yes.) used to be on the road, dunno, on the road, not long back now, they haven’t so long retired, have they? (Mrs S: Yes, of course, they used to be horse and carts [???].) They had like a closed in van with two horses, they used to come from Kelvedon, and they used to stop in Witham, I used to have to go up Maldon Road on a Saturday, stop on the corner of Maldon Road where the White Hart is, waiting for them to come to Kelvedon and they used to go to Chelmsford and they used to pick up things on the way to take ‘em to Chelmsford people, pick up and drop all the way back. Well, my mother used to send, there wasn’t a Maypole in Witham then, used to send for her butter and marge all at the Maypole in Chelmsford, and used to have to take the money in an envelope with the name on and then an order inside, ‘cause if you bought a pound of margarine, then you had half pound give yer, free, (Mrs S: Mm, that’s right.) them days and I used to have to go up there at night about six, and wait for Moore to come from Chelmsford and get the parcel, they used to charge about threepence I think. (Mrs S: Wasn’t much, I know.) I dunno, about threepence or sixpence, I couldn’t tell you exactly, but very little, but to take your order in and bring yer stuff back and used to have to be up there to meet ‘em from Kelvedon and up to meet ‘em from Chelmsford at a certain time at night, you used to have to go up and wait for them to come back and get our parcel off, always remember that (Q: I’d never heard of that, that’s interesting, yes. That was just for the butter and the marge, you did have marge then, did you?) Well, we had to eat marge then, I mean, we never had the money, all my mother had to keep house with, off my father was a guinea a week, and there was a big family of us. She done work indoors, same as we did, sorting seeds for Cooper Taber was it or Cullen’s? (Mrs S: Cullen’s.) Cullen’s. (Q: Did she?) My mum done that indoors and we used to have to go out in the fields all the summer to work, we had to go erm, fruit picking for Morse of Hatfield. Mum liked pea picking best, but she found out the kids liked fruit picking best, I think that’s ‘cause you could eat it, that was better than peas [Laughter] and erm, we’d go to Morse’s and every time you weighed up you weighed up about four times a day, I think you weighed up for breakfast, ‘cause you used to get there about six in the morning, or seven, I don’t know what time exactly, but used to get there before breakfast, so you knocked off for breakfast, you’d go and weigh all your fruit and they used to give you, you put ‘em on the scales and they give you a ticket how much (Mrs S: How much fruit you’d got.) you’d earned on that so much fruit in that basket and the men used to take it and tip it in tubs and then you had to have your breakfast and the gang would come you’d start work again a certain time, you was only allowed so long for your breakfast and then I think you used to weigh up until about eleven o’clock and then you had your dinner hour, weigh up again then, used to get all these little square tickets, they used to sort of tear ‘em out, like you would stamps and on a Friday night you used to have to get a great big sheet of brown paper, you want a smooth piece, and all the biggest ticket …

______________________________________________

Notes

See the end of Tape 5 for notes about Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett

Tape 007. Mrs Dorothy Ireland (nee Goss), sides 7 and 8

Tape 7

Mrs Dorothy Ireland (nee Goss), was born in 1894, and was interviewed on 25 November 1976. when she lived at 12 Chalks Road, Witham.

She also appears on tapes 1, 2, 3, 33, 86, 90 and 97.

For more information about her, see the the notes in the people category headed Ireland, Mrs Dorothy (Dolly), nee Goss

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

______________________________________________

Side 7

Q:    What the one ….?

Mrs I:    The next one, where Mrs Richardson lived [44 Church Street].

Q:    [???]

Mrs I:    Well, Hasler left, well, she was good and worked for him and he left her the cottage, she paid ninety, she said. Oh, how nice to see that. Course, that’s Dorky [Henry Dorking, blacksmith at Chipping Hill, must be discussing pic thereof]. That’s strange. But you’ve got to just think for a moment.


m0589 bottom of church street for pic 1
Picture 1. The bottom of Church Street.
tape 007, pic 1, church street bottom, drawing
Sketch relating to Mrs Ireland’s information about the photo above. (1) was the fish shop (8 Church Street], (2) was Alderton’s paper shop [10 Church Street or 10a Church Street], and (3) the fruit shop [10b Church Street or 12 Church Street]. Also (1) was Fuller the butcher as on this pic. Probably he was before the fish though this not absolutely clear.

Q:    That’s right. Well, I’m amazed you can remember at all, really. That’s further down, isn’t it, that’s not all there now, where the chip shop is, is it [showing photograph: see pictures 1a and 1b, of bottom of Church Street]?

Mrs I:    This is what annoys me, you see. That was the, that’s the, oh, they’ve got that house very nice, haven’t they. Well, there was the fish shop [(1) in picture, 8 Church Street], and there was Alderton, the paper shop [(2) in picture, 10 Church Street or 10a Church Street], and the next one was a fruit shop [(3) in picture, 10b Church Street or 12 Church Street], now we haven’t got that. So we used to come from the butcher’s, and we could go and get our vegetables and bring our paper home, and now we’ve got nothing. Oh, there’s the lamp. There’s the carts, you see, the bakers’ carts. The barrels are there.

Q:    What’s in the barrels, I wonder?

Mrs I:    Well, there would either be vinegar, oh they’d be vinegar, wouldn’t they, for the greengrocer, yes.

Q:    I see. So what happened, if somebody would [???] vinegar at your shop, if somebody came in for some vinegar, would they have to bring a bottle?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, half a pint of vinegar a penny.

Q:    You’d bring your own bottle, would you?

Mrs I:    Own bottle. And you had your cask, and you’d got the little cork, yes.

Q:    And I suppose other things ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, it is nice to think you’ve got that one. Oh, I think that’s great. Oh, I wouldn’t have even thought, I couldn’t imagine you’d got it.

Q:    I am surprised anybody taking a picture of it, it’s a good job they did.

Mrs I:    Oh, it was nice.

Q:    I don’t know whether I can read any of these names, on here. Fuller’s, that says [(1) on picture, 8 Church Street].

Mrs I:    Oh, it’s Fuller the butcher. Then he had the butcher’s shop right opposite Collingwood Road. You know you go straight down into Collingwood Road and there’s a big shop, that’s a fish shop now, I think [29 Collingwood Road].

Q:    That’s it, yes.

Mrs I:    Well that was Fuller. He went from Church Street there, and he opened one up here. He was the first man to open one here, in Church Street at the end [perhaps St. Nicholas Close]. Oh, that’s Fuller.

Q:    I can’t read the others there. That must be the paper shop, mustn’t it?

Mrs I:    Alderton, yes, that’s Alderton [10 or 10a Church Street].

Q:    And that next one was the ….?

Mrs I:    That was fruit [10b Church Street or 12 Church Street].

Q:    The fruit shop, was it, yes?

Mrs I:    Fruit, yes. We often think, and you’d walk up and then you’d get your bread, wouldn’t you, and your sausages and everything. So strange, you know, and now we’ve nothing. I quite think that Sainsbury’s, and another shop, would have come, but the bothering fish shop stopped it, see the smell of the fish. That’s a pity they ever put the fish shop there [probably referring to present shop in newer building, at 10 Church Street]. But then it was here, originally, and so that’s what they did. But after the fish got there, you see, none of them came.

Q:    What, Fuller’s was the fish, was it?

Mrs I:    No, Fuller’s was butcher’s, you see.

Q:    Fuller’s was the butcher’s, that’s right.

Mrs I:    You see, but that went.

Q:    But then when he went there was fish, was there? [or just possibly fish first in fact]

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    Yes, I see.

Mrs I:    Pity, ‘cos we often think, you know, a nice, although the shops, but, I think Coates does well [16 Church Street], and so does the car shop, good [8 Church Street]. Clive was saying that’s a very handy shop, to pop in for odds and ends, for the car. And then there’s the hairdresser [12 Church Street] [these all at time of interview].

Q:    That’s right, people come up to those from quite a way, don’t they?

Mrs I:    They do, oh yes, yes. Clive says’ it’s a good, he said ‘I think that did well there’.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, they’re beautiful ones, aren’t they. Fancy seeing Dorky and poor old Freddy Hasler. Ah. Poor old Freda, Griggs [see tape 3].

Q:    These are Chipping Hill again, that’s a bit further away [showing photograph: see pictures 2a and 2b, showing Chipping Hill towards the green].


MW II 17 b chipping hill towards green for pic 2

MW II 17 c chipping hill towards green for pic 2
Pictures 2a and 2b. Chipping Hill looking west.
tape 007, pic 2, chipping hill towards green, drawing
Sketch relating to Mrs Ireland’s information about the photos above. (1) was Tyrrell’s, bootmaker, and (2) was a sweet shop and postcards run by his mother (both since demolished for 39 Chipping Hill). (3) is two cottages, put into one now [probably no.43]. (4) (22 Chipping Hill) was where the people probably went from the cottages on the green that were pulled down (32-34). Previously Cheek the basketmaker lived there. At (5) there are window boards on the shop for protection.

Mrs I:    Have you got the nice, very nice. Oh. Oh yes, that’s the same, and these are still here. Oh, now, you’ve got something here very interesting. That’s the bootmaker where he used to do these boots.

Q:    Where the lady’s standing there, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, that was Tyrrell’s. And this was another little, just sweet shops and postcards and different things [both now demolished for part of 39 Chipping Hill]. That’s his bootmending place, and then of course these are all down.

Q:    Which was the boot ….?

Mrs I:    Tyrrell.

Q:    Sorry, the boot man was Tyrrell.

Mrs I:    Yes. In this little piece. And his mother, usual again, mother in the business, and the son had the other little corner piece, see, to do the boot repairing.

Q:    Oh, so that’s where the Chase goes, is it?

Mrs I:    That’s right.

Q:    Oh, I didn’t realise it was right up there, yes. So that’s gone, then?

Mrs I:    That’s nice. And then of course these two cottages, they’re into one now, aren’t they  [probably 43 Chipping Hill]?

Q:    Yes, and this is a big, a different house?

Mrs I:    That’s right.

Q:    Or bungalow, oh is that where the bungalow is? Oh, I’m lost now.

Mrs I:    No, not[?] the bungalow.

Q:    No, that’s the Chase, isn’t it [actually I think I was mistaking the gap on the far side of 39 for Moat Farm Chase, which isn’t actually on the picture; it is out of view to the front left].

Mrs I:    No, past, yes, that’s right the Chase, past. They’re all down, you see. Oh look, you’ve got this all nice. And still again. Oh, this is a good one, because you’ve still got that little row of cottages, again, and the sweep’s [32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill, see tape 3]. But then it avoids those at the back [26 Chipping Hill]. Oh, and then you see there’s the one which the people from there moved over the road into these.

Q:    The one right at the edge [right hand edge of picture, i.e left-hand part of red-brick buildings next to the blacksmith’s house, probably known as 22 Chipping Hill].

Mrs I:    Yes, you’ve only got one, there are two. Yes, that’s nice.

Q:    Oh, the people from the cottages that were pulled down?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, yes. That used to be a basketmaker lived there.

Q:    Really? Before they moved there, you mean.

Mrs I:    Yes, before they moved in.

Q:    ‘Cos he was in, now I’ve heard of Smith in Guithavon?

Mrs I:    Oh, not, no, these were Cheek.

Q:    Cheek?

Mrs I:    Yes, they were basketmakers. Used to take the chairs there to have the canes, you know, the bottom of the chairs. You know it’s been a very interesting place.

Q:    There was a lot going on, wasn’t there, yes.

Mrs I:    You wouldn’t think so, would you, for Chipping Hill. Cheap Hill, Cheap Hill, you see, that’s where they got the Chipping from. Cheap Hill.

Q:    Cheek? Wasn’t there Cheek a printer? Was there Cheek the printer when you were ….?

Mrs I:    Pardon. No.

Q:    Cheek the printer? No, that must have been before then?

Mrs I:    No. Afford was the printer.

Q:    Afford was the printer, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, the cars.

Q:    That one’s nearly the same [picture 2b].

Mrs I:    I’m surprised you’ve got this one with the cottages [32 Chipping Hill and 34 Chipping Hill, on the green].

Q:    When did they pull them down, I wonder? I never read when they pulled them down?

Mrs I:    Well, after. After the 1914 War, ‘cos I remember Vera [Rudkin, see tape 3] living there. It was after. They pulled them down, and they didn’t rebuild, you see, did they?

Q:    No, no.

Mrs I:    And course, you could go round the back of the houses.

Q:    What, round the back of the cottages between the two. I suppose you had to, to get to those. That’s nearly the same, that one, isn’t it [picture 2b]. So you can see this shop a little a bit better.

Mrs I:    You’ve got some …. Oh yes, oh yes you can see the shop now. Oh yes, look, and you see how they used to have the window boards, and then close them in, didn’t they, always, for protection [(5) on picture, now part of 39]. People thought there was no robbery or no wrong, but you see they always did that for protection, didn’t they, put the windows back. Yes, there’s the shop.

Q:    That’s what it was for, you reckon?

Mrs I:    Oh, definitely, oh yes, yes. Oh, it is nice to think you’ve got that, with those again. Brings that house very nice, doesn’t it.

Q:    It always strikes me as strange, that one doesn’t have a garden, does it [26 Chipping Hill]?

Mrs I:    No. At the back. They’ve got to come,. they’ve got to come and walk along and go past the third house and then go into the garden.

Q:    I know she always has, nowadays she always has her washing out by the door there.

Mrs I:    Oh that’s was the Vicar was upset about,  Black. Well there’s nowhere.

Q:    There’s nowhere else, really, handy, to have it, is there?

Mrs I:    Well, she couldn’t go right round, could she. Oh, isn’t it nice, though.

Q:    These are all rather similar, really. That’s the, that’s a big wide one with the White Horse [2 Church Street].

Mrs I:    Oh, course, this is the White Horse, of course. Oh and this. That used to be a nice house [Barnardiston House, 35 Chipping Hill]. Bibolini lived there. He worked at, he was a butler at Faulkbourne Hall.

Q:    Really? And he lived there, did he?

Mrs I:    Yes. Yes. And then, he ran away with a girl in the pea-field, I always remember.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, and they came and lived in that beautiful house, old Bibolini [laugh]. Oh, I remember him. Oh, you do get some nice …. See, and there’s the back of the White Horse, you see. How nice, that is.

Q:    That must have been quite a story in those days, then? The butler. Would the butler be quite a respectable, sort of, thought of as quite respectable?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and he used to say, we used to laugh, he used to say ‘I am an Englishman. I am a naturalised Englishman’ [laugh]. Well, you remember those little tales, don’t you?

Q:    He must have done quite well to have a big house like that.

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, he did, but that’s where he was, he was butler at Faulkbourne Hall. Course we say ‘Forburne Hall’, that’s Faulk-bourne [with k], you see.

Q:    Was that the pea-fields round here somewhere?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, right off. Oh yes, I remember that tale. You do, don’t you, naturally scandal, especially a girl and another fellow [laugh].

Q:    That’s right, yes. Was it somebody you knew?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes. Relative next door to me.

Q:    Oh, I see, oh well, how exciting.

Mrs I:    Yes, peas [or Pease?], oh, I remember that.

Q:    ‘Cos I remember you saying that your grandma didn’t like the pea-fields much?

Mrs I:    Oh, no, I went once, and I never shall forget, it was the only time I ever had a smack.

Q:    She, I expect she thought that was going to happen, did she [laugh]?

Mrs I:    Well, she thought, you see, might be some of my people might arrive, and she wasn’t taking care. Oh, I always remember that.

Q:    But you quite wanted to go, did you?

Mrs I:    Well, naturally. And you get there, and you see them putting the peas into the sack, and you then, and I always remember they[?] would keep combing my hair, we just sat on the pea-sacks, and I suppose I was happy You used to go and take the tea or something up, into the fields. I remember we did that for Driberg [Tom Driberg, M.P. for Maldon, 1942-55]. That’s the last time I ever went in the pea-field. I went with Mr Goody, he lives at the top of the road.

Q:    I know, yes, near Crittall’s [46 Braintree Road].

Mrs I:    You remember, do you? Well, we went across the pea-field to, for the women, ‘cos they weren’t at home, to canvass.

Q:    No, I see.

Mrs I:    And we went into the field.

Q:    To canvass them, did you really?

Mrs I:    Yes. That’s Driberg, I told you.

Q:    Oh, that was when he was standing as an Independent, was it [in 1942]?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, oh, yes, Independent. And the Tories put him in, didn’t they, because the poor old Labour candidate was fighting in the War. Wicked, wasn’t it [laughing]?

Q:    So, how did you get involved in helping him, then?

Mrs I:    Goody asked me.

Q:    Did he?

Mrs I:    And when I said, I went to several, and they said ‘You know very well we’re not going to vote’. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘it’s ridiculous’. ‘Oh, we’re not voting, no, it’s not fair. He’s out there fighting, why should I’. ‘Well’, I said, ‘you’ve got to have someone’. I said ‘Anyway, it’ll put the other one out, won’t it?, old Fortescue Flannery’ [laugh] [Driberg’s opponent was not actually Fortescue Flannery, who was an earlier M.P.]. Oh, I remember going across the fields with poor Goody, mm, I do.

Q:    So, what did you, you just to talk to them? Did you have to write down what they ….?

Mrs I:    No, we just asked them.

Q:    You just went to talk?

Mrs I:    We just said, you see, he was Independent. Oh, he was a splendid man. Oh, he was.

Q:    Oh, I didn’t know you did that?

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh, poor Goody, we often speak about it, when we went across the pea-fields [laughing]. Well, you like to think. I’ve always interested myself in politics, I don’t know why.

Q:    No, it is interesting, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    I always have. But I’m not at all interested in the Jubilee. No, not at all. Fact I’m annoyed. I think the money could be well spent in others. When you know, there’s, the country’s in such a state.

Q:    I remember you said elections were exciting when you were little.

Mrs I:    Oh, they were beautiful.

Q:    Was your grandma involved, interested in politics?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Liberals. We were Liberals, you see, more Liberals.

Q:    Of course, she wouldn’t have the vote would she, till, no probably wouldn’t have a vote at all, would she?

Mrs I:    No, no. Oh dear, I remember.

Q:    So I suppose the women wouldn’t get involved much?

Mrs I:    No. Course, old Strutt. You know, Strutt, I went to see my friend yesterday afternoon, and her father was the bailiff, farm bailiff for the Honourable Strutt, and she was saying, ‘They never had a road or anything after Strutt, did they’, she said, ‘and he was very good to his people’ [Charles Strutt].

Q:    Yes, that’s strange, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes. She said, because she said, there’s been a Conservative, they were all, then, weren’t they, Council men, there weren’t many. She said she just couldn’t understand it, ‘cos we were speaking about the Smith family, because somebody, a big friend of hers, is coming out of a house into Maldon Road, because Rowley the garage people need it.

Q:    Oh, I know, yes.

Mrs I:    And she was speaking about Smith, you see [Councillor Ted Smith, whose wife was Peggy Smith, born Peggy Wood, of the Trafalgar Square Wood family]. Oh, and she said the same old thing again, yesterday. ‘Course’, she said, ‘we weren’t allowed in Trafalgar Square, were we?’. And yet all those son-in-laws married those girls [hushed]. And they’re nice fellows, aren’t they? I’ve never spoken to Smith, I should like to. ‘Cos they say he’s a very good man. Well, he’s trying to fight for her, I think, ‘cos Rowley wants those four cottages down [77-83 Maldon Road, demolished by 1979].

Q:    Yes. I know the ones. I’ve got a friend that lives next …. It’s Mrs, Pachent.

Mrs I:    Oh it is, Hilda Pachent, yes.

Q:    I’ve only met her once, but my friend lives next door to her.

Mrs I:    Yes. Well, that’s who I’m speaking about, you see. So she said ‘Oh, have you heard if Hilda’s got a place yet?’. And then I asked Margaret Brown, she lives in Collingwood Road [7 Collingwood Road], next to the optician. Course they’re friendly. But of course Hilda, strange thing she did, she married, she lost her husband, and then she went back to her own name.

Q:    Oh, I see.

Mrs I:    Hilda Pachent. Oh how strange. So, we wondered if she, you know, what was happening, and she said ‘Oh, Mr Smith’, she said, ‘is a councillor’, and she said ‘he’s fighting the case for her’.

Q:    So you knew the Woods in those days as well, did you?

Mrs I:    Oh, I knew those. And then we said, we said the same thing, it’s funny, that Strathearn [Alex Strathearn, married Nin (Edith) Wood], he was on the Council wasn’t he, and this Mr Smith, and was there another, another man?

Q:    Yes, Bentley, was on the Council, yes, that’s right [Alf Bentley, married Vi Bentley, born Vi Wood].

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, we couldn’t think of anything. We could not think of his name. I said ‘I know his wife’. And we said, she, I said ‘Well, I suppose Mr Smith used his influence, and you can train the man’, I said ‘if nobody else would stand, so what have you got to do, you’ve got to be represented, haven’t you?’

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    But I’ve never met Mr Smith.

Q:    Haven’t you? Oh, he’s nice. Yes, I met his wife going over, down the town this morning. I think they go about a lot in the car, so you don’t see them.

Mrs I:    I knew their mother, she died recently, Nellie Wager, yes, I knew their mother, but I’ve often ….

Q:    She was, Wager was her name?

Mrs I:    Yes, and her mother, see, remarried and it made it Smith [not sure that Nellie, the mother, was ever a Smith; think she was Wood when I knew her]. ‘Cos there was, there was Colonel Smith. They were nice people, it was just that the place you weren’t allowed into.

Q:    I remember talking to somebody else who said she lived down there, now she’s Mrs Brown now, Keith Brown’s mother, what did she say her name was {Edith Brown]?

Mrs I:    Hawkes.

Q:    Hawkes, that’s right.

Mrs I:    Come from there, yes, and the Haygreens. Oh all lived, but, it wouldn’t be them, I suppose it would be some, some of them, you see, you can’t condemn everyone, can you?

Q:    Well, it sounds as if Mr Hawkes had quite a good job and so on.

Mrs I:    Yes, definitely, and they, I think they worked hard, and done well, haven’t they, extremely well.

Q:    As you say, it’s just, a place gets a bad name, I suppose?

Mrs I:    Yes, and why should they, you see, these, I suppose these fellows were soldiers, and I suppose that’s how he met the girls. I shouldn’t think he would meet them in Witham, I should think they would meet them ….?

Q:    You mean they were Witham men and would bring the girls back with them [the Woods’ husbands weren’t actually]?

Mrs I:    Yes, wouldn’t you think so?

Q:    Maybe, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh how strange you should think of Hilda Pachent.

Q:    Yes, because, I know they were very upset about the houses, it does seem a shame, doesn’t it? ‘Cos she didn’t really want to move away, did she [Mrs I: Well, I think ….], perhaps she’s got used to the idea now?

Mrs I:    Well, I think it’s ridiculous, because I mean they’re not that valuable, and I mean, they put them in nice places, don’t they, the Council.

Q:    Oh yes, she’d probably be more comfortable, won’t she?

Mrs I:    And then, definitely.

Q:    They were a bit ….

Mrs I:    Well, she is, and we only said yesterday afternoon we wondered what was happening. Still, people do these things. Well, years ago, you could just buy a house, someone living in it, and get them out, couldn’t you, which used to be very unfair.

Q:    Yes, at least they have to find them somewhere now.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh, times have changed, haven’t they?. They talk about the old times, but I think everything is done for the good, isn’t it, if you can get people to vote for it.

Q:    I suppose when, did you, when you were rent-collecting, was anybody ever evicted?

Mrs I:    Oh, good gracious, no. Only where I told you of, Oliver Cromwell cottages, he would not come out. And they took the roof off and he was laying in bed [‘Cromwell cottages’ now are 25-31 Church Street, which seem quite old; possibly she referred to 39 Church Street etc. where the old ones have been demolished].

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Old Shelley. Well, they were so ‘dilaperated’, you’d got to do something, the land was there, wasn’t it? Oh, no, you’d never, we’d never do a thing like that.

Q:    What, so, they had to pull them down, you mean, and he wouldn’t come out?

Mrs I:    Yes. Took the roof off, and then he came, and went up to Wickham with his son. But that’s the only one I know.

Q:    But not if they didn’t pay the rent or anything?

Mrs I:    Oh, no. Oh no, you, the debts had to die, there was no getting it back, it would cost you more to get it back, wouldn’t it?

Q:    And if they didn’t have it, there wouldn’t be ….?

Mrs I:    And old Blood, have you heard of ….?

Q:    Yes, I have, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, well, he wasn’t a good magistrate. Oh no, he wasn’t, he was for the people, I know one or two cases that were really genuine and they lost, he ‘wasn’t going to have his clients proved guilty’.

Q:    What, he was a magistrate or a solicitor, you mean?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, magistrate he was, yes, Bindon Blood. Lived next to the Public Hall [10 Collingwood Road].

Q:    So he turned them down because they were people he ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, people that he knew. Oh, he ‘wasn’t having his clients proved guilty’.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Mm. I remember that. See, I’ve always been interested in that kind of thing, you see, some people are not, you see.

Q:    No, I find it …. As you see, things are so different, aren’t they, I mean if a magistrate said that now, he would be off.

Mrs I:    Oh, definitely.

Q:    Whereas I suppose everybody took it for granted in those days, did they?

Mrs I:    Well, well, Philip Hutley, well, they used to say he was clothed in gold.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes. Powershall End. We used to say, here he comes, clothed in gold.

Q:    What, from the farm [Powershall]?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, Powershall End. Oh, yes.

Q:    So what sort of cases would these be that Mr Blood was involved in, things about the houses and things, do you think?

Mrs I:    Yes. And baby cases, in particular. And, you know, when they were trying to prove for the father. He wouldn’t have them proved guilty.

Q:    You mean if, to prove whose baby it was?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, yes, to get the money, maintenance money. I always remember one person in particular lived in that house by Chipping Hill Post Office, and I know for a fact she knew the father, and, and the child grew up and you could see. But Bindon Blood said no. ‘Wasn’t going to have him proved a guilty man’.

Q:    What, you think partly because he was man, perhaps, as well?

Mrs I:    In it, you see. Oh yes, you’ve got to be …. Well, so did old Honourable Strutt, gracious, they used to say some tales about him.

Q:    Really, what sort of tales?

Mrs I:    Well, the same thing. Gracious. They used to say ‘He’s got Doug Bowyer there, and he’s got old Gaymer’. Used to say ‘Course, don’t want to ask any questions, they’re his sons [laugh]’. Poor old Strutt. And you’ve got the blacksmith here, that’s very nice. And here and the different things. The doctors were the first to have the cars that we noticed, the Gimsons, they were the first cars.

Q:    Yes, everybody speaks, everybody speaks well of them, I’ve never heard a bad word spoken of the doctors, really, the Doctor Gimsons.

Mrs I:    Oh no, they would, oh no, they would never charge. ‘Cos course in those days you had to pay. Five shillings for a visit, I always remember, seven and sixpence to the Hill.

Q:    Really, it must have been a lot, seven and six up to Chipping Hill?

Mrs I:    Yes. Yes, ‘cos I remember with the children, you know, if they had a cough, or measles, you’d always got to report it, because you just, or whooping cough, and you had the doctor in. And it would be seven and sixpence.

Q:    Yes. That was when your, when you had children, yes?

Mrs I:    Yes, when my children, you see, fifty years ago.

Q:    But you think they, they charged, if somebody couldn’t afford it, what, they would …?

Mrs I:    Oh, they were good, they were good. But they weren’t generous in the town.

Q:    Weren’t they?

Mrs I:    Oh, no, they weren’t generous.

Q:    What way do you mean, they ….?

Mrs I:    Never helped. Now, Laurence did, Percy Laurence at the Grove, he did, he did a lot. And Strutt, he did it for his workmen.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    But Gimsons were mean people, very mean.

Q:    Really, that’s interesting, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, very.

Q:    ‘Cos I suppose it must have been quite a good job being a doctor?

Mrs I:    Well there were three, you see, wasn’t there, in it. Doctor Ted was the poor man’s doctor, they used to say, Karl went to the rich.

Q:    I wonder how that came about? Do you think that was actually true, or just what people said?

Mrs I:    No. I think it was just …. ‘Cos Doctor Karl drank a lot.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    And, old Ted used to like to go into people’s and tap their legs and call them by their names and all different. Oh yes, Doctor Karl was more snooty.

Q:    Was he?

Mrs I:    Mm.

Q:    But Doctor Ted didn’t mind going in ….?

Mrs I:    Drank. So did old Bawtrees, they used to drink.

Q:    Did they?

Mrs I:    Yes, Bawtrees, they were the solicitors.

Q:    Did they actually live in Witham, the Bawtrees?

Mrs I:    Yes. In the High Street.

Q:    Where the business is, they lived there [65 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Where would people, when you say people like that drank, would, where would they go to drink?

Mrs I:    Constitutional Club.

Q:    Ah.

Mrs I:    It was burnt down, wasn’t it, in the High Street, I remember that well.

Q:    Would you see them drunk, or just hear about it?

Mrs I:    Oh, you’d know, the speech.

Q:    Speech, from their speech, you mean, yes.

Mrs I:    Speech, oh yes, definitely. Oh yes.

Q:    With the doctors, Doctor Karl didn’t live as long, he died before Doctor Ted didn’t he, as well, so he wouldn’t have ….?

Mrs I:    Yes. Doctor Ted had his fancy lady, Nurse Wood in Collingwood Road.

Q:    Did he? I see.

Mrs I:    Of course he did, used to see the car out there, used to say ‘Oh, Doctor Ted’s there’ [laugh].

Q:    ‘Cos they weren’t married, were they [the Gimsons]?

Mrs I:    No. I expect they saw enough of the women, didn’t they [laugh]. Oh yes, well you get the fairy tales, don’t you, when you’ve lived in the place all your life. Whether it was scandal or not, you had to have your own opinion on everything. But when I go up to see the Cissie [Miss Taylor], we have all that over, because she knows, and she tells me about the Honourable Strutt [Charles, of Blunts Hall], and she only said the other day, she said ‘Old Bob Gaymer died, didn’t he?’ ‘So’, she said ‘course’, she said, ‘you know, Honourable Strutt’, she said, ‘of course, that was his son, can’t you see the likeness’. See, ‘cos she used to hear her father say it, didn’t she? And of course she was at the house, the farm bailiff’s house, right near, and she could always into the Honourable Strutt’s. And she said ‘He called my father in, and he said, “Oh sit down, Moss”’. Moss Taylor. ‘Got something I want to tell you’. And he said ‘I’m getting married’. I suppose he was surprised ‘cos he married late in life. ‘So get the champagne out, and, let the men have just what they want’. And Brenda was saying yesterday afternoon, she said ‘And they laid in the stables all drunk, all the workmen’ [laugh’].

Q:   Really?

Mrs I:    Yes. And then of course there was the torchlight procession, there was everything, yes.

Q:    ‘Cos you said he was good to his workmen?

Mrs I:    Oh he was. Oh yes, because Mr Woodwards used to bring his rent, two pounds twelve, every harvest, time. And he’d ask for the two shillings back.

Q:    Who was, he was one of their workmen, was he?

Mrs I:    Yes, he was.

Q:    Where did he live, then?

Mrs I:    In Church Street.

Q:    Oh I see.

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh yes, he was good to his workmen, but …. Oh yes, you have got Laurence Avenue, well he was good, he really was good. I think Philip Hutley was good, was generous. But Gimsons weren’t. Oh no, no, not at all.

Q:    Yet they did sort of mix?

Mrs I:    Speak as you find. Well, they didn’t hold their position. You see, and they didn’t in those times. You were all one. There was no class distinction, no nothing. There was no-one really that you could look up to, only your parson, you know.

Q:    I see.

Mrs I:    Course we always had canons in those times.

Q:    So you wouldn’t reckon to look up to the doctors or the solicitors, or Mr Laurence or anybody?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no. No, ‘cos Laurence was good, I mean, he used to have that pathway right down, with the big gates. But I mean he never complained when we used to go into the Avenue and sit under the trees. And the animals were all there, ‘cos there was no building. Oh, he never complained [The Avenue, then part of the grounds of The Grove, Newland Street, home of Percy Laurence]

Q:    Do you think some people looked up to them?

Mrs I:    Yes, I think so, you thought ….

Q:    Perhaps you didn’t but perhaps others did?

Mrs I:    No. But they were very good, they were, they were nice, they were all Sunday School teachers, the daughters.

Q:    So I suppose, probably people looked up to them but they knew them as well, perhaps?

Mrs I:    Yes, well I think they thought …. You see there was so much poor, wasn’t there? There were so many poor people, that they helped them, didn’t they. And the bow and scrape and all that sort of business, was all over. Oh I was, I thought of you yesterday, oh I laughed. I met Harry Rudkin and I hadn’t seen him for years, and off came his hat. I said to Clive ‘I could have knocked the hat over the other side of the road’. I thought ‘You old-fashioned thing, you’. It was daft.

Q:    We talked about that, didn’t we, yes?

Mrs I:    Daft. I mean, this cold weather, I don’t think it’s necessary, do you?

Q:    [Laugh] He probably didn’t, he’d been doing it so long, he couldn’t help himself.

Mrs I:    [Laugh]. That’s strange, though, it only happened yesterday, I thought ‘How strange’.

Q:    Anyway, where ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, you have some lovely photographs.

Q:    They all belong to Mike Wadhams, you know?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes definitely.

Q:    His father was the Public Health Inspector.

Mrs I:    Oh, the father, I knew the father. Yes. He was very nice, but …. See, I went to a wedding and he brought me home, at Rivenhall, Golden Wedding, but I’ve never met his son, but I’ve met Mr Wadhams. He’s, well, I don’t know, he’s a strange man. Do you know him?

Q:    Yes, isn’t he, I only met him once or twice, he’s a bit shy perhaps?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, I’m glad. No, I don’t know quite ….

Q:    ‘Cos he was quite strict, really?

Mrs I:    He couldn’t hold his position. That style of man. Oh no, I didn’t like him, at all.

Q:    I didn’t really meet him very often.

Mrs I:    And a friend of mine was having the sewers and all that put on in the village at Rivenhall, and I remember he was there, but, I thought he was a strange man.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    He’s got the son, but I don’t know the son.

Q:    I think we’ve nearly finished Chipping Hill now, that’s from the other end, isn’t it [showing photograph: see picture 3 (showing Chipping Hill looking east) ?


MW II 16 c chipping hill looking west for pic 3
Picture 3. Chipping Hill looking east.
tape 007, pic 3, chipping hill looking west, drawing
Sketch relating to Mrs Ireland’s information about the photo above. (1) was the Post Office (45 Chipping Hill). (2) was a private house adjoining (43). The bootmaker was Tyrell and is also marked on the previous photo

Mrs I:    Yes, you’ve got some nice ones. Oh, this is another nice one again. I like to see the lamp posts ‘cos that interests me, to think he used to come at night.

Q:    Oh, this one here, right at this edge here [(1) on picture, now 45 Chipping Hill]?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that’s the Post Office.

Q:    That was the Post Office, wasn’t it, yes?

Mrs I:    That’s the Post Office, and that was a private house next [43 Chipping Hill], then there were the two. And there comes the little shop, sweet shop and postcards, and then it’s the bootmaker [see earlier on this tape; left of (2), now demolished for 39 Chipping Hill].

Q:    And the Post Office, did they sell other things there as well?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, this side, yes, Mr Doole, yes, he sold the sweets and the different things and kept this part. Oh and there’s a nice part of the blacksmith again. They are really nice.

Q:    That’s similar, I think, that’s the Post Office there, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, because look, you’ve got one of the houses there, where the doctor went into recently, didn’t she [47 Chipping Hill, Dr Ogden]?

Q:    Oh that’s right, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes. Allison[?] used to live there, there’s a passageway there, they’ve no back way. But the passageway is that way, to your back.

Side 8

Q:    [showing photograph: see picture 4, of Vicarage, now the Old Vicarage, Chipping Hill]. That was bigger then, was it, or is it just ….?


MW II 18 vicarage for pic 4
Picture 4. The Old Vicarage, probably in the early 1900s. Part of it was later taken down by Reverend Payne because he thought it was haunted.

Mrs I:    Oh no, you’ve got the front, oh yes, because, yes, there’s the front door, you’ve got this part of it. How ridiculous, that new parson, I always say parson, has asked them to have a pathway put from his end house [new Vicarage, 7 Chipping Dell] I’m going to have that walk up Chipping Dell, into the church.

Q:    That’s right, yes.

Mrs I:    Now, isn’t it a pity that they sold this vicarage where it was supposed to be, come across. I don’t see where he’s coming, across the churchyard. And another thing, if they put that pathway just for him, naturally people are going to use it, aren’t they?

Q:    To cut through, yes, ‘cos it’s a long way round otherwise, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Well, it’s only natural, yes. I think it’s a strange idea. Oh yes, well, this was chopped off, all the side there [Old Vicarage; left side?], because it was supposed to be haunted. Ridiculous. I think it was Payne, Doctor Payne, was an ill man, the Reverend Payne, not Doctor Payne, we had a Doctor Payne. I think he was nervy, and he had an idea because those horses killed that lady in the stables that it was haunted. But anyway, he had it chopped off.

Q:    Which, when was that, in the stables at the Vicarage?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes. ‘Cos the stables are now made into that nice Church Hall, isn’t it?

Q:    So what happened then? I haven’t heard that tale about the horses.

Mrs I:    Well, then, Black, there used to be a big iron tomb opposite Church Street, and it told you, it was all the reading there, and then silly Black had it taken off. I know it began to go rusty at the bottom, but you know it was interesting to see the people stand there and read it.

Q:    Yes that’s right.

Mrs I:    You see, the lady went into the stables with these beautiful satin dresses, that rustled, you see and the horse ‘stampled’ on her.

Q:    Really? Was that somebody you knew?

Mrs I:    Oh no, that’s an old tale.

Q:    That was before, yes?

Mrs I:    Before my time, you see.

Q:    Rather like the tale of the castle down at Powershall End, that was an old tale as well?

Mrs I:    Oh yes ,oh yes, they’ll all tell you that. But as children we used to be interested and go to see if we could see this beautiful lady coming out.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, so it wasn’t that distance, was it?

Q:    I remember you telling me about getting the water from the spa. Was that, did it just come up in the middle of the field in those days?


tape 007, pic 5, map of lane to moors
Picture 5. The way to The Moors. This is part of a map of Witham published in 1845 but based on the tithe map of 1839. Powershall End goes along near the bottom of the map, and the track which still goes to Faulkbourne goes off it northwards, immediately west of the words ‘Witham Place’. On the tithe award, field 644 is Moors, with a stream in it, probably the one Mrs Ireland ‘followed’. This field is still there, between Honeysuckle Way and Faulkbourne, with a footpath through it. The 1953 Ordnance Survey 1:2500 map has two springs in Moors, and ‘issues’ elsewhere. In 1953 there were orchards in fields 640 and 642, partly in the parish of Faulkbourne, probably the ones referred to by Mrs Ireland as Ledger’s orchards. On older Ordnance maps the original (18th century) spa is shown on the southern edge of the long field with the line of trees (649). The trees were often known as the Monks’ walk. This is a printed map; there are copies in Colchester Library and the Essex Record Office.

Mrs I:    Yes, yes, and so it does into the Moors [see picture 5, map].

Q:    Into the Moors?

Mrs I:    Moors, when you, have you never been down to the tiny lane that leads you right to Faulkbourne Hall?

Q:    Oh, I think I know, yes.

Mrs I:    Well, we call it the Moors, you see, that would be all the ploughed fields, and then there’d be this one very nice meadow, before you got to the orchards, which are Ledgers’ orchards. Well, that’s where we used to go to pick the watercress and the mushrooms, and we used to put our little hands under, or take a little, that was supposed to be special for some reason. And when people were ill we used to take a bottle and get the spring water.

Q:    Oh? And they’d drink it?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Is that the path that goes up, opposite Highfields Road?

Mrs I:    No.

Q:    Or a different one up by the river?

Mrs I:    No, right, where the wall is, you know the ‘Roman’ wall, the back of the wall [probably where I suggested first, misheard by Mrs I then, off Powershall End, going north, nearly opposite Highfields Road, see map].

Q:    Oh I see.

Mrs I:    You see, that’s where the stream, then we used to go down the lane to follow the stream. But I don’t know, they don’t take their walks, I suppose there isn’t anything interesting, is there?

Q:    No, I like to go there, really. ‘Cos we went up once to Faulkbourne by that, well you go up by the big long wall ….

Mrs I:    Oh yes.

Q:    And then there’s a, there’s a track.

Mrs I:    Oh, have you been down the beautiful ….?

Q:    As I say, opposite the end of Highfields Road, isn’t it, more or less, up there?

Mrs I:    Yes, yes.

Q:    That’s not the one you were speaking of?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    That is the one you were speaking of?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh, yes. But I used to ask Mr Bradley, I used to say, now course they’ve done the ploughing. You made your own pathway, you see, ‘cos they’d plough it all up. He said ‘Yes, you can still get through’.

Q:    Really ? And this spring was in the Moors.

Mrs I:    Yes, in the Moors, yes.

Q:    I think if it’s a public footpath they have to leave something, don’t they, for you to get through?

Mrs I:    Yes, but of course they naturally plough through, and you have to tread it down.

Q:    Yes, quite.

Mrs I:    But still, you enjoyed it, you liked walking through the corn, you didn’t keep to the pathway, you went in the corn. You see, you never see a poppy now, do you, or the flowers all in the corn. Oh that’s a lovely one. And she had that all altered.

Q:    ‘Cos I remember, talking of that part of the place, I remember someone telling me, someone showed me a picture of the old mill down there [1 Powershall End], and there was a picture, in front of it there was a Mr Springett, who was the father. Did you know them at all?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    Did you know them at all?

Mrs I:    Yes. She’s still living. [Q: Is she still there, Miss Springett?] Miss Springett. Yes, she’s, see, she’d be, think, I think she’d be nearly ninety.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, she’s still living there [6 Powershall End].

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    Eva Springett. Yes. They used to work, you see, for the fruit farm, Ledgers.

Q:    Oh, I see.

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh, fancy springing that name, yes, Eva’s still there.

Q:    Because I think Springetts must have been there a long time at that place, haven’t they?

Mrs I:    Oh, all their lives, yes.

Q:    And their father and his father as well, I think.

Mrs I:    The father before, yes.

Q:    I’ve read the name a long time back

Mrs I:    Yes, Springett, yes. That’s Douglas and Eva there now.

Q:    Yes. Now these are probably of the High Street now.

Mrs I:    Oh aren’t they nice.

Q:    Most of these are at the top end, look [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 3(a) and (b), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’].

Mrs I:    But Witham, but Witham is not so interesting, is it, as Chipping Hill?

Q:    Perhaps not quite the same, no.

Mrs I:    Oh no, because, you’re more in the town, ‘cos we used to say ‘We’re going to the town’.

Q:    Did you?

Mrs I:    That’s not, see there’s no, shops. See, there’s still the lamps. They do fascinate me, the lamps. To think those poor men used to go round and just, pull them down, with a stick. And there’s the horses and carts, aren’t they?

Q:    This, wait a minute, it was the Whitehall, was it Whitehall Mr Blood lived at, in that [18 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Oh no, oh no.

Q:    No, that must be ….

Mrs I:    No, that’s Clarke, isn’t it, it used to be Derek Bright [16 Newland Street].

Q:    It was Bright, was it, yes.

Q:    Yes. Derek’s father, the old Brights, they were there. And then of course that’s the farmhouse, isn’t it [Freebornes, 3 Newland Street]?

Q:    The Wakelins were there, weren’t they?

Mrs I:    Wakelins, yes. That’s Witham. And all the trees, you see.

Q:    That was the bottom of the Avenue, I suppose?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right. That would be very nice, the farm. That’s a nice one.

Q:    Now, then, I’ve worked out where that used to be [showing photograph: see picture 6, Newland Street near Red Lion].


MW II 04 newland street red lion etc. for pic 6
Picture 6. Buildings near Red Lion, 7 Newland Street (white, left of centre). “A Rowe” is now 9 Newland Street, and J G Green is now 13 Newland Street.

Mrs I:    Green, yes, Green [13 Newland Street].

Q:    And that’s Rowe there, A. Rowe [9 Newland Street].

Mrs I:    Oh yes, and this is Green.

Q:    This is next to the Red Lion, I think?

Mrs I:    That’s right, yes, it would be, you see.

Q:    Do you remember them at all?

Mrs I:    No. I remember Green.

Q:    Greens?

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh, yes, ‘cos that’s the entrance, you see. Course the Red Lion’s all so different [7 Newland Street].

Q:    Yes.

Mrs I:    Everything’s different in the High Street.

Q:    And of course the Post Office wouldn’t be there then, would it?

Mrs I:    Oh no, no, no, that’s this way down. Oh, I never, they’re all down. Well, of course, I suppose, they get in such a ‘dilaperated’ state. Oh yes, this is nice, oh it’s the horses.

Q:    That’s a nice one, isn’t it.

Mrs I:    Oh, that’s nice. Oh yes, these are nice. This is just before you get to the Avenue, isn’t it, these [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 5(a), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’].

Q:    Yes, ‘cos that’s a big house there, isn’t it, Avenue House [4 Newland Street].
9    Mrs I:    Well, you can see these are ancient, because they’ve still with the lamps. Course it was Mawdsley that lighted our place up so well, didn’t he, you could see a, well we said, when that first was lighted up, I always think of Teddy Mawdsley, because he was the one that was on the Council then that did it. You could see a mouse run across, oh, they were lighted. Oh, he did do that great, he did.

Q:    What, that was electricity?

Mrs I:    Yes, oh yes. Oh yes, we always think of Teddy Mawdsley when we think of the bright lights. Because it is a well-lighted town, isn’t it.

Q:    It is really, yes.

Mrs I:    Oh, it is, it’s great. I’m sure when we come from Ipswich and we come in at night, oh, it’s beautiful, oh it is. And I love my lights at the back.

Q:    Oh, that’s down more recently, isn’t it, Redman’s [37 Newland Street] [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 6(a), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’]. I’ll put the ones you’ve looked at over here so they don’t get mixed up.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that comes again. Oh, yes, that’s a double-fronted one. Course that was Beckwith and Brown in our time [37 Newland Street].

Q:    Was it? What did they do?

Mrs I:    You know, not basketmakers. Joiners.

Q:    I know, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, you know, furniture, all good furniture. More second-hand, this side used to be, and the other. Oh, they’re good. Cabinet-makers, that’s the style of thing.

Q:    Yes, so he was actually making it, yes?

Mrs I:    Yes. There’s the White Hart. That hasn’t altered at all, has it?

Q:    It hasn’t really, has it, no.

Mrs I:    No, good. That’s lovely to see these beautiful ones. See, ‘cos that was a nice place, wasn’t it? It really was. You can see the cellars underneath, you can still see the grating.

Q:    That’s further down, isn’t it, the sort of middle bit of the High Street. It’s difficult, you can’t see many of the actual places [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 3(c) and (d), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’].

Mrs I:    No. No, because I think if you go for the corner ….

Q:    You can’t see many names. This is a corner place there, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes. Oh yes, but this would be where the Trustee Savings Bank [55 Newland Street] and Halifax, they would be there, wouldn’t they, and the Spread Eagle entrance there. Oh, they’re great, really. You haven’t got Green’s in, the chemist? No, he would come just there, on that corner, with the steps up [64 Newland Street]. That would be a good old-fashioned one.

Q:    Now this has got the name Norris here [60 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, ah, that’s the baker.

Q:    There?

Mrs I:    Yes. Norris. That’s where he comes, yes. Now, who is there now. Oh, they’ve just moved out, the bread people, haven’t they, into the precinct [Tooks]. Yes, that’s Norris.

Q:    Next that looks like a butcher there, with, next to it [58 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    That is, that would be Bardwell [Barwell]. Oh, and Dowsett, the shoe shop [56 Newland Street].

Q:    That’s Dowsett there, is it? Yes. I’ve heard his name.

Mrs I:    And Spurge’s, you see, would be there, where it’s out [42 Newland Street]. And then here would be private houses. Doctor Maisey lived, there, I remember [52 Newland Street to 54 Newland Street, The Wilderness].

Q:    What, in the big one?

Mrs I:    Yes, in the big one, that’s Doctor Maisey. They were Scotch people, they were very nice people. I remembered when we were in the Tuppenny in a play, we used to go there to, ‘cos we were birds, I was an owl, and I remember we always used to go there to rehearse and do the ….

Q:    Really? Was that when you were still at school?

Mrs I:    Doctor Maisey. Yes. Well, I should be fourteen or fifteen because that’s why I was chosen for the owl, ‘cos I was taller, you see. I said ‘The owl with my spade and showl[?]’. I think that’s why the girls and why Clive went to operatics, because I think I was that way, and they all did it. But now it’s so different.

Q:    Was there much, was there a lot of that sort of thing then?

Mrs I:    Yes. See, Clive never goes anywhere now. I said to him ‘When you think of the dramatics and the operatic.’ He said ‘Well, it was the study that did it. You can’t think of your career and do everything’. You do it when you’re younger, but when you get older you can’t do it. I think he’s too conscientious with his work. He’s always helping others.

Q:    Now, what have we got here. There’s again the Spread Eagle and the tea place, isn’t it [showing photograph: see picture 7, of Newland street near Spread Eagle].


m0416 newland street middle for pic 7
Picture 8. Newland Street, part of the south side. International Tea is now 43 Newland Street. Only half of Haslers is shown, on the extreme right, next to the Spread Eagle.

Mrs I:    Oh, this is nice. Oh, look at the cart where they take the things out.

Q:    That was a bit older, I should think, because the road was all muddy there, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Oh yes, oh this is a nice one. International [43 Newland Street].

Q:    Yes, I hadn’t realised that was there so long ago, that.

Mrs I:    No. It’s still there. And that’s Hasler’s, that’s another Hasler, brother to the Chipping Hill Hasler, he was there, next to the Spread Eagle, yes [see the drawing, probably 51 Newland Street]. They were nice old buildings, weren’t they? And that seems so funny to see the horses and traps, and the carts.

Q:    And the nice long dress.

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh, by the way, speaking of the horses and the carts, is Mr Godfrey ill with his foot [Bert Godfrey, 2 St.Nicholas Road]?

Q:    Well, he’s got a verruca on his foot.

Mrs I:    Only I don’t, I don’t like to ask him. Because I know, I remember his father.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    You see. Mrs Godfrey was ever so good, she looked after him, and his father had gangrene.

Q:    Did he?

Mrs I:    And they came, but you wouldn’t have the leg off. And I said to Clive ‘I’m worried about Mr Godfrey’. He said ‘Well now you speak about it, I’ve noticed it’. Oh and he looks so old, ‘cos he’s not old.

Q:    No, seventy something. It’s his birthday tomorrow.

Mrs I:    Yes. But he’s only just over the seventy.

Q:    Only just over seventy, probably.

Mrs I:    Yes, would he be about seventy-one? Wouldn’t be more.

Q:    Seventy-one or two perhaps, yes. No, I think he’s got a bit of rheumatism and he’s got a verruca on his foot.

Mrs I:    Oh, has he?

Q:    Well he thought it was a corn or something, I think, something like that, but he’s been to the doctor now.

Mrs I:    Oh I wondered if that was the other.

Q:    But he’s having it seen to, so ….

Q:    I wondered if it was the other. I said to Clive ‘Now, whoever’s going to look after him’. I said ‘His wife looked after his father and did it wonderfully for him’. But I said ‘Oh Clive’, I said ‘I hope not’. And I don’t like to ask him.

Q:    No, I think he’s being seen to all right.

Mrs I:    Because you don’t like to let him think that you’ve noticed it, you see. But oh it’s sometimes. And I’ve noticed from my back way, you see, and I think ‘Oh Mr Godfrey, I’m sorry’.

Q:    Because they lived down in Bridge Street, didn’t they?

Mrs I:    Yes, I wondered if you’d got one of those houses.

Q:    I’m not sure, I’ll see. Where are we? Let’s keep going down in the right order, shall we? [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 2(a), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’] Oh, there’s one with a name on, that’s Frederick Pluck on the corner [68 Newland Street]. Did you know them?

Mrs I:    Oh of course, oh yes. That was a lovely shop. Oh that was. That was nice. He used to have the, you know, really nice, classy things, gent’s. Oh he did, that was a nice …. Oh Pluck. And then would come Afford’s, where Mr Godfrey was working, printer, that would be Afford’s next [70 Newland Street] and then Bradshaw’s, they’d be clothing [72 Newland Street]. Well now you’ve, Green should be here with his steps up [64 Newland Street].

Q:    Yes, that’s right, it’s a bit distant, but I think that’s it, yes.

Mrs I:    That’s right. Oh, aren’t they lovely.

Q:    Did they, I’ve read about a house in Guithavon Street called the Clock House, you don’t happen to have heard of one, I think it was probably the one at the back, the big tall one at the back of Pluck’s, but that wouldn’t …. [4 Guithavon Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes, that would be the one.

Q:    I think in fact the clock was there before, before it went to the Constitutional or something?

Mrs I:    Yes, well, the clock. It was taken from the Constitutional Club [between 88 and 90 Newland Street] after the burning down, and put to the Bank [61 Newland Street].

Q:    Yes. Yes. But there’s this place down there called the Clock House, and I’ve never quite worked out which one it was.

Mrs I:    Well, you go down that little entrance, and then the baker, and the shops there, that’s their back entrance [now Coach House Way].

Q:    Oh I see.

Mrs I:    You can come right out into Collingwood Road.

Q:    Yes, I see, yes.

Mrs I:    But I suppose it’s not used now because they built.

Q:    I don’t think you can get through now actually because of the shops.

Mrs I:    No, but that’s what you did. That was the entrance, you see. And Drake. I wonder Drake’s not there. Oh, he’d be round there [perhaps 66 Newland Street].

Q:    Which one?

Mrs I:    The wine merchant. Oh, he used to drink, oh he was terrible.

Q:    That was up past, through the little alley way?

Mrs I:    Yes, down that entrance, yes, that was the wine, Drake. Poor old Drake. Oh dear. Isn’t they lovely though, to see them.

Q:    Yes. What’s that. Where are we?

Mrs I:    You have got a lovely collection.

Q:    There’s masses, aren’t there. They’re lovely. There we are, perhaps you’re on that one [showing photograph: see picture 8, of Newland Street near Constitutional Club].

MW II 02 b newland street for pic 8
Picture 8. The north side of Newland Street in about 1900. The Constitutional Club is on the left with the Clock (between what are now numbers 88 and 90), with Coker and Rice on the lower floor(s). Archer was at what is now 88 Newland Street.

Mrs I:    Oh, my patience. Oh, yes, you’ve got it.

Q:    Yes. Oh, there’s the Constitutional Club, yes [between 88 and 90 Newland Street].

Mrs I:    Oh. Oh you’ve got it. Oh, fancy. Oh, I didn’t think I should ever see this one. Oh, the Constitutional Club. Oh, they used to say ‘Serve them right, the drunken lot’ [laugh] [i.e. the fire in 1910]

Q:    Did they?

Mrs I:    ‘Serve them right, that should have happened long ago’.

Q:    Did they ever know how it, the fire started?

Mrs I:    Yes, course. Cigarettes, different smoking, of course, they’d have their evenings. Oh, they said, we can always remember them saying ‘Thank God nobody’s killed’.

Q:    Yes, quite.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, I remember that, all the boozers were there [laugh]. That was their meeting place.

Q:    Was anybody in there when the fire started?

Mrs I:    No, no. Course they’d left it overnight, hadn’t they, and that happened early morning.

Q:    I see.

Mrs I:    Yes. Oh and the old clock is there. And the barrows, isn’t it strange?

Q:    ‘Cos, this says ‘Coker and Rice’ here [same building as Constitutional Club]. Was that at the bottom there or something? And there’s a little notice on the lamp saying ‘Public Hall’, I think. Presumably that’s the entrance there?

Mrs I:    Yes, that would be the end of it, you see. Yes, that’s right.

Q:    But was Coker and Rice ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, Coker and Rice were again cabinet makers.

Q:    At the bottom there, were they?

Mrs I:    Yes.

Q:    So they had the bottom and the club at the top?

Mrs I:    Cabinet makers, yes. And then this big place.

Q:    What does that say? Archer on this one [88 Newland Street].

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that’s right, the glassware, yes.

Q:    Oh yes, I think you mentioned that, too. That just looks like a house next to there then [86 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    Yes, well it would be, Bradshaw’s private and then Bradshaw again [though Bradshaw probably further up].

Q:    I see.

Mrs I:    People and the different things. Gracious. Isn’t it wonderful. To see, how it stands out.

Q:    Yes. Let’s think. That’s rather similar, only just a bit further down really, isn’t it [showing photograph: see picture 9, of middle of Newland Street]?


m0247 newland st wide part for pic 9
Picture 9. Newland Street looking west, in about 1900. The Constitutional Club with the clock, as before. Olley’s on the right is now 95 Newland Street.The entrance in front of the latter, labelled Orth, probably led to a vehicle repair place, belonging to Wenden(?) at the time discussed.

Mrs I:    Oh yes, that’s a plainer one, I think, ‘cos you get the opposite.

Q:    Oh, so opposite there was, is it Orth [east side of 95 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    All houses there.

Q:    Does that say somebody Orth, that’s a funny, no, can’t be.

Mrs I:    Yes, but they were all private houses that side, weren’t they. There’s the lamp post again. Oh, that would be Olley’s [95 Newland Street]

Q:    Olley’s?

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s right, the wool shop. That’s right. And then came the cars, where they used to take the cars in and repair [probably entrance east of Newland Street, labelled Orth in photo].

Q:    Oh the garage, Central?

Mrs I:    Yes, only it wouldn’t be garages in those times. No, I forget what we used to say. Because I know Tol[?] Wenden[?] was there. I remember going into there.

Q:    I wonder what they used to call them before they thought of a name?

Mrs I:    Thought, yes, of course. No, they’d just say ‘Take them into the works’ or ‘Take them into Warren’s’, you know, whatever was the name of the people that owned the place, ‘into Warren’s’. Oh, wonderful, isn’t it. But fancy this old clock [???] on the Bank [61 Newland Street].

Q:    I’m surprised they managed to rescue it, really. It must have fallen down with quite a bump when the place was on fire. Well that’s your place, isn’t it [showing photograph: see picture 10, of Newland Street near old Post Office]?


tape 007, pic 10, newland street near old post office
Picture 10. London House was one of Spurge’s shops and is now 76 Newland Street. Discussion about whether the Post Office not is visible. It was probably near or in the low building with the pointed roof (from 1887). That’s now number 82 or 84. Mrs Ireland expected to see a pillar box there but perhaps the pic preceded the pillar box. The big telegraph pole was in front of the Post Office.

Mrs I:    Yes, but then, this is the strange part, just recently the Chapel.

Q:    Oh yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, that’s the news, twice, that’s coming down. Yes. I thought how strange, I thought of it then. Oh yes, but that’s not a very plain one, is it.

Q:    It isn’t terribly, is it?

Mrs I:    You don’t get the houses at all, do you? No. Oh no, that’s not a good one. London House, that was another one of Spurge’s [74-76 Newland Street].

Q:    Oh, that was Spurge’s too, was it?

Mrs I:    Yes, that was Spurge’s, you see, they called it London House. You got things a little different there. He had household things, carpets, and different things in the one at the corner, and wines and spirits, and tobacco, and that sort of thing [i.e. at 42 Newland Street?]. But here was more for drapery, this London House. We used to like London House better. We used to shop there, a lot. There’s a horse and cart again.

Q:    I suppose the Post Office was this bit with the little roof on there, was it [84 Newland Street]?

Mrs I:    No, no. ‘Cos you see we’ve got your tower[?] on there.

Q:    Pity that’s not clear, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    It’s not clear. It’s here. ‘Cos Sammy Page’s would come there [86 Newland Street]. Yes, ‘cos look, right down there, there you get the big houses, don’t you, where Balch and the different ….

Q:    Byford’s, yes.

Mrs I:    Yes, all those. Yes, that’s just popped in there, that’s not a good one. Because even the pillar box is not there, is it. Pillar box is not there. That’s not a good one, is it? ‘Cos this is where Corley’s got his part. You’ve just got the vacant piece for the houses from there to there. But you haven’t got the good Post Office, have you, nor the pillar box. I wonder why? That must be an ancient one, or they didn’t just get it right.

Q:    No. They’re very closed up, aren’t they.

Mrs I:    Yes, very. It wasn’t focused well, was it?

Q:    ‘Cos this bit with the roof on was what, then? That’s another shop there, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    Yes. That’s old Sammy Page’s part.

Q:    Oh that was Sammy Page’s, was it? And the Post Office was ….

Mrs I:    Yes, that part, but, it’s out, isn’t it, you can’t see it at all. And it should be the pillar box, shouldn’t it. So that’s an ancient one, don’t you think?

Q:    Yes, I think so, yes.

Mrs I:    Very ancient.

Q:    You reckon this is before they had the Post Office even, yes?

Mrs I:    Oh. No, I don’t think so.

Q:    No, I wonder, it’s hard to tell, isn’t it?

Mrs I:    That’s a very ancient one, it really is.

Q:    These are on the other side, really [showing E.R.O. T/P 339, II 2(e), not reproduced in ‘tape 7 – pictures for.doc’].

Mrs I:    Very plain, aren’t they. Oh yes, that’s where the clock was taken over [61 Newland Street]. And there’s Green’s the chemist, comes there [64 Newland Street]. And of course this is Mondy’s, isn’t it [63 Newland Street], and that’s the bank [61 Newland Street]. Well and Bawt-, nice people lived there, somewhere there, Bawtrees [65 Newland Street].

Q:    At the Bank, you mean, yes?

Mrs I:    Yes, of course [actually not]. Oh yes, Barker [actually Peecock], he was a nice man, the bank manager, lived in Collingwood Road. They were nice people. They had one daughter, Ruth. [There was a Barker at the bank too.   JG]

Q:    Oh, is that the Peecocks?

Mrs I:    They were nice people. Peecock, yes. Oh they were nice people.

Q:    ‘Cos she collected, Mrs. Peecock was interested in history and she collected some papers and things.

Mrs I:    Oh, yes, and Ruth, the daughter?

Q:    And Ruth sent them to Chelmsford to the archives [E.R. T/P 133, and also a volume recently transferred from Chelmsford Library to E.R.O., Accession 10510].

Mrs I:    Oh, that’s nice to hear of Ruth.

Q:    So there were some pictures and things.

Mrs I:    Oh they were nice, oh, they were nice people, they really were. They helped. ‘Cos with the nursing home, when that was first built, they were very good to collect the names and get the people in that couldn’t afford to go in [nurses’ bungalow, 46 Collingwood Road]. I went in there each time, but I paid the seven guineas a week, I remember. You went in for fourteen days. But when there were people that couldn’t go, oh she was good, she paid.

Q:    Really?

Mrs I:    Yes, because I was next, there was only two, they could only have two, and I was by Mrs Hawkes, they lived in Shooting Lane by the Catholic [probably Chess Lane, houses belonging to Freeborne’s farm, since demolished], and it was her twelfth baby, and mine was the first, and she said to me ‘Mrs. Peecock is paying for me’. And I remember when she went out, she said ‘Oh, I can’t have a taxi to take me home’, I said ‘Oh yes you can’, I said, ‘I, when I go’, I said ‘that’ll be quite all right, you go’. And I’ll always remember, you know you remember when they’re poor, she used to take her stockings off and she used to shake them [laugh], but she was helpful to me, oh she was helpful, with the first baby.

Q:    She must have known what it was about, mustn’t she?

Mrs I:    Oh, she was good, and I didn’t know, you didn’t.

Q:    I was going to say, did you know, know much what to expect or anything?

Mrs I:    Well this is the strange part about, I’m glad you asked me that, and I don’t mind answering. Well of course I didn’t know. My husband, where did he, oh, he went to Yarmouth. He said ‘Got a big job on this morning ‘, and I said ‘Oh it’s quite all right, the people’, you know, Mrs. Hayes next door [11 Chalks Road]. ‘Oh’, I said, ‘it’ll be quite all right’. But course I was very independent, I went marching down, ten o’clock at night [laugh], and I, the baby was born at twenty minutes to twelve.

Q:    Really. Yes?

Mrs I:    Oh, but so, course I didn’t know, so the next morning I thought ‘Oh, I shall have to write a letter’. Well I didn’t know you mustn’t get out of bed, so of course I got out of bed and went over to me case. Course, when the nurse came in she [Mrs Hawkes] said ‘Do you know what Mrs. Ireland’s done this morning, she’s got out of bed’. She said ‘You’ve never been out of bed’. I said ‘Oh yes I have, and I’ve been to the toilet’, just round the corner. D’you know what she did? She safety-pinned me to the mattress.

Q:    She didn’t, did she?

Mrs I:    She did, both sides [laugh], she was scared I’d get out again. I’ve always been active.

Q:    [Laugh] Yes And actually having the baby, did you know what to expect?

Mrs I:    No, no.

Q:    No? Still I suppose if it was quick you wouldn’t ….?

Mrs I:    Oh, that was good, that was. I had no doctor. Oh, they praised it. Doctor Ted came in to see. He marched in, he said ‘I want to see Dolly’s baby’.

Q:    Yes. ‘Cos you’d think with your grandma, if she’d done lots of babies you would know all about it?

Mrs I:    No, no.

Q:    But you wouldn’t go, in, no?

Mrs I:    No, I used to sit on the doorstep.

Q:    They kept the children away did they?

Mrs I:    Yes. ‘Oh’, he said, ‘Oh I can see whose baby it is’. I thought ‘Well that was a nice thing to say before Mrs. Hawkes’. Oh and he said I picked a baby, but it was, she’d got all lovely hair, plenty of hair. But I’ll always remember that, but she was good to me, she, you know, she told me the wrinkles, you know, you don’t always want all this. She used to tell me all the different things, ‘Oh, don’t take no notice of what they say’. And she said ‘I’m going to have my baby in the bed with me tonight’, nearly the last night she was going home. And the nurse said ‘Yes’, she said, ‘we’ve got two cases, we’ve got to go out’. So I said ‘Do you think I can have my baby in with me?’. She [Mrs Hawkes] said, ‘Yes, but don’t tell her’. Oh she was, you know, all the little wrinkles that she told me what to do.

Q:    So Mrs. Hawkes told you have the baby in but the nurse didn’t know about it?

Mrs I:    No. She allowed her, because she was going out, almost the day, so I said ‘D’you think I ….?’ She said ‘Yes and I won’t tell her’.

Q:    Yes. And I suppose in those days you fed them yourself always, did you, without any question?

Mrs I:    Oh, I did, always, and I think that was why, and I had first prize, for the baby.

Q:    Did you?

Mrs I:    You see that was why, because it was breast-fed, see. I wondered why, but of course that is why. Oh yes, I, I fed the babies the old-fashioned way, and all the different little things, and she said ‘They get hungry or anything’, she said, ‘you get a little tin of milk and the dummy’, but I never had a dummy.

Q:    No. This was Mrs. Hawkes, was it ? Still if she’d got twelve, I should think she ….?

Mrs I:    Her twelve. We often think about Donald, ‘cos I know when their birthdays are and I speak to the Hawkes family. I think there’s one or two in Church Street, yes. But you know it was nice to have someone in there, wasn’t it, you know with the twelfth baby, oh it was nice. And she had all the gentry in to see her so I had all beautiful things, when they used to pass them to me. And then the second time I went in, oh have you heard about, oh dear, big man, Conservative agent [probably Frank Moore]. His secretary was in there, and he used to come in, course whatever he brought the secretary I had. Oh whatever did we call him? Huge man, lived round Avenue Road. And then he went to Notley. Oh, I’ve forgotten his name. So I’ve been fortunate. What happened with Clive? Oh, I don’t think I had …. No, nobody came in with Clive, I think I was on my own all the time, and Miss Smith, in this road [2 Chalks Road], was helping, so I used to get her company each morning. But I remember it snowed. But I’ve really been very fortunate you know, with the people coming in.

Q:    When you say the gentry came to see Mrs. Hawkes, why was that?

Mrs I:    Oh Mrs. Hawkes. Well, because she was poor, wasn’t it, you see, and her husband worked for Wakelin, old Bertie Wakelin. Oh, they were good to her, she had every comfort, everything beautiful See, so that’s where Mrs. Peecock was kind.

[After end of tape she said that while she was walking down to the nurses’ bungalow to have the first baby, she had to stop by a tree near the Cabin [top of Collingwood Road, west side, nearly on the railway bridge, now demolished]. It was her waters breaking but she didn’t know, good job it was 10 o’clock at night. They paid weekly to the Nursing Association for treatment, having babies etc.

Mr Bawtree would read in Church, and ‘we used to say “you drunken old man”’. The Peecocks were different, were ‘nice’, and ‘old-fashioned’]

______________________________________________

Tape 008. Mrs Edie Brown (nee Hawkes) and Mrs Grace Springett (nee Bishop), sides 5 and 6

Tape 8

Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett were both born in about 1895, and were interviewed on 4 March 1977, when they lived at 13 and 9 Rex Mott Court, Witham.

They both appear also on tapes 5 and 6, and  Mrs Brown is also on tape54.

For more information about Mrs Brown, see the the notes in the people category headed Brown, Mrs Edie, nee Hawkes.

For more information about Mrs Springett, see the the notes in the people category headed Springett, Mrs Grace, nee Bishop.

They both also appear on tapes 5 and 6, and Mrs Brown is also on tape 54.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

Numbers on the left show the time in minutes.[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

See the end of Tape 5 for notes about Mrs Brown and Mrs Springett

__________________________________________________

Side 5

Mrs B:    like a pointer, don’t they …and they [???]. And they used to have this table, and all these heaps of money, there used to be, all sorts, sixpences and, and shillings and two shillings and half-crowns and golden sovereigns and half-sovereigns, all in heaps on this table. And then he used to give you, whatever you got to come off your sheet of paper. He give you, the, your money what you’d earned for the week.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs B:    We used to do fruit picking….

Q:    I’ve never heard about that – that was fruit picking, wasn’t it, yes…

Mrs B:    My Mum liked that best, ’cause the kids liked it, she liked pea-picking best but the children done better at, at the fruit picking. But when you went, sort of, picking raspberries, ‘course the juice used to run with them. You used to have to go and, you used to have to go and, um… weigh them up more often. (Q: I see). Because, you see, you used to get so many in the basket, and they are horrible juicy things, they used to run all out the bottom. (Q: Yes) And I remember when we were kids and how the bottoms got all wet with juice; we used to rub the basket in the mud, like. We used to get some mud on the bottom, used to weigh a bit heavier! [All laugh]

Q:    And you used to do that as well [to Mrs Springett]? And you were quite near the fruit part, weren’t you, Kelvedon?

Mrs S:    No, I was…

Mrs B:    Course, in them days, you never got much for your, for your work…

Mrs S:    See, I didn’t come to Witham till I was….

Q:    No. But you would be quite handy at Kelvedon, wouldn’t you, to, um…?

Mrs B:    We used to go of a morning…. (Mrs S: [speaking over] I was in Kelvedon you see.)
Early, fruit picking. There used to be a great big pile of baskets. (Q: Really?) And we used to pick what, get one of the best baskets you could get, you know, ‘cos some of ’em were old and weren’t much good. And you used to all take all your baskets and you’d go wherever there was a ganger there. Perhaps you’d be picking raspberries one day; strawberries another day, little tiny Scarlet strawberries.

Mrs S:    They had ‘em for jam, didn’t they?

Mrs B:    Jan was a’telling me she went to a shop. She told me, Jan, and she went to get a pot of jam and she did tell me how much the Scarlet strawberry jam was, that was called Scarlet jam. Ever so dear! (Mrs S: I know it is.) I believe she said about six shillings a jar [speaker sounds shocked by price]. I said, “Well, there’s no difference in the taste of strawberries”. Only they were – the biggest was no bigger than that. They were very small ones you picked. A purpose – for jam. And the boys mostly used to pick the big ones in the ‘chips’, you know. You used to have a gang of boys (Q: Oh did they?) That was tremendous; there were acres and acres of fruit. Every fruit. And the boys used to pick the gooseberries. The gooseberry trees were in the orchard amongst the apple trees….

Mrs S:    Yes, that’s right. Ours were at Kelvedon.

Mrs B:    …One in between every apple or pear tree and they used to pick the gooseberries. But we used to pick, um, the strawberries and raspberries. I used to love picking raspberries. As they always come off so easy. (Mrs S: I love the smell of them) I used to love the eating of them – but, oh, she used to [???] them at first [Mrs S laughs] ’Cos raspberries are a bit on the maggoty side, ain’t they?

Q:    Could be, yes. Could you eat whatever you…?

Mrs B:    Yeah, eat what you want, no worry. They never used to say – well, they couldn’t watch everybody, could they? I mean we used – every – whatever sort of fruit you wanted. You picking. The only thing I didn’t like was currants, they’re too sour. And often, when you’re picking redcurrants you used to come against a tree of white. Well, they used to turn yellow. (Mrs S: Yes.) You used to have to pick ’em and put along with the others. But often, when you had a row and you’d have to pick everyone off the trees; they looked at the trees to see you’d picked them clean, you know. You couldn’t just pick them here and there; you used to have to clean a tree when you started it. And sometimes you’d come across a tree of white ones. Well they’d turned a yellowy colour when they were ripe. I’ve picked currants – ’course you picked a lot of them but you didn’t get so much money for them (Mrs S: No.)  You picked them – if the trees were good, you could pick them in bunches, you know. Handfuls. But there was a certain way you’d got to pick ’em; you couldn’t pull the shoots off the trees and that, you know. You just gotta – sort of pick ’em – and you ain’t got to have a leaf in nothing. They used to look at them afore they weighed them and if you’d got the leaves in they’d make you stand and pick them out. Never had to have any leaves in, specially the strawberries. As you picked them you had to sort of – nip them so you got them off the – out the green, not the green. But I think the boys what picked the big things, they picked ‘em with the stalk on and the leaf, you know, in the big ones, the strawberries. But we had to do all sorts – I’ve been stone picking! (Q: Stone picking?) Yes, picking up stones, I have, on a Sat’day morning. My mother had to do all sorts with the family we had.

Mrs S:    I’ve been acorn picking. (Mrs B: Eh?) I’ve been picking up acorns (Q: Acorns?)
(Mrs B: [Talking over Mrs S] I used to have to have a …

Mrs S:    for the pigs.

Mrs B:    She’d send us off Sat’day mornings, there used to be a great big heap. They used to put them in a heap, the stones what you picked up, in amongst the wheat. All sorts. Wheat and corn and stuff. And you used to have to pick all the big stones up and you used to have to a – a sack – apron thing. Weren’t half heavy. You used to pick up these stones. Us kids used to play more than what we picked up. And take ‘em, and shoot ‘em on the heap, you know.
But, um, …(Q: Did they give you something for that, did they?)…. we used to do all sorts

Mrs S:    Yeah, did they weigh them or (????) Didn’t pay much…

Mrs B:    [talking over] Well, I think they got so much for how many they- I don’t –

Mrs S:    Something a bushel, wasn’t it?

Mrs B:    Eh? (Mrs S: So much a bushel was it?) No, I don’t think so, Grace, I think they used to have a row of stones; you used to have to put them in a sort of heap, into a big run. I think you got so much – I expect they knew – then, a little – what you’d picked up. And they used to – either they measured them or what they done, but, I don’t know how we used to get paid for ’em ‘cos we never got nothing. They used to get paid about once a week.

Q:    What, they paid your Mum, when ….

Mrs B:    Yes, they used to pay me Mum when she – ‘cos she used to come, but, Sat’ days she couldn’t go ‘cos she’d got lots to do, you know. And, um, she used to send us kids. We used to have to go. And I always remember, poor old Mrs Everett, you know, her son – her daughter-in-law lived down – poor old Mrs Everett down here. Well that was her daughter-in-law, that was her son’s wife. And we used to get good food, you know. Me Mum kept a good food house. We was lucky, really, ‘cos our brothers worked and they used to go out shooting a lot with the doctors and we used to get hares and rabbits and different game, all sorts. And she used to pack us up something for our lunch and a drink. And always poor old Maurice Everett only had bread [laughs]. And I’ve never forgot it. I can see him now [laughing] eating bread and lard. I thought ‘Oh Gawd’ how does he eat it? But he’d sit, and enjoyed it same as we enjoyed our bit of food, you know. But, bread and lard! ‘Cause she was ever so poor, Mrs Everitt was, poor old girl, she was a nice old girl; she was our neighbour, then, in the Square, lived next door.

Q:    Was Mr Everitt – that was Maurice Everitt was the boy then, was he, then?

Mrs B:    Yeah, Maurice, yeah. There was Frank and Maurice, don’t know what happened to them all,  expect they’re dead now, because they were older than me when I was down the Square, you know. When I lived down there. And I don’t suppose they’re alive now. The old people died years and years ago so did my Mum. My Mum died when I was, um, about seventeen, I think. (Q: Oh, I see). About seventeen or eighteen when she died.

Q:    What, did you still stop at the Square when she died until you were married or…?

Mrs B:    Well, I did for a time. My married sister – I never got on with her and, um, I never – I left home, and went and lived with a friend of me mother’s in lodgings, like, when I was working. And then me sister moved up to our cottages where we lived up Church Street. Dad lived up there in one, and me sister lived in one. And that’s how I come to live up there. I come from the north and me father was in one of the houses and I went in with him. (Q: Oh I’m with you) ‘Cos there were the two bedrooms, you know. And he died, me Dad died while I was up there living with him. I’d got Edie and Jean then, hadn’t I? I’d got Jean as a baby, I believe.

Mrs S:    I forget now.

Mrs B:    ‘Cos I’m forgetting. I think I’d got Jean. I know I’d got Edie, ‘cos she was running about. Yes, I think I’d got Jean a babe, ‘cos there weren’t a lot of difference, about two years difference in them. And, um, she moved out the Square and she went to live up there, near me Dad, me Dad in one house and her in the other.

Q:    I don’t think I asked you what your Dad’s first name was. What was his Christian name?

Mrs S:    George.

Q:    He was George?

Mrs B:    George, yes.

Q:    And what about your mother?

Mrs B:    Jane.

Q:    Jane. Oh, just in case I read anything about them, I like to know who they are. [All laugh]

Mrs B:    Cos I named my Keith, his second name was George. (Q: Oh was it?) Yes, my youngest son. The one where we went yesterday. He’s Keith George, I named him. We named him after his Grandad. After my Dad, you know.

[Mrs S and Mrs B comment on someone outside.]

Q:    We were talking about the Everetts and I interrupted you, didn’t I. We were talking about the Everitts that lived next door to you and how you said they were very poor…

Mrs B:    Yeah, they were very …

Q:    What did Mr Everitt used to do – for work?

Mrs B:    I don’t know; the old man never worked, for years (Q: Didn’t he?) Not, er, he was in ill health, I think. ‘Co I remember once they found him sitting near the wall in Maldon Road, you know, he was took queer outside. They were getting on in years. So was me Mum and Dad, we was all grown up then, you know, grown up and working. Me sister worked. The one what died, what had the big family? She worked – well – you wouldn’t remember. There was a Nurse Roberts lived in Collingwood Road. Dr Gimsons. Dr Ted and Dr Karl were very friendly there. (Q: Yes) She was a nurse.

Mrs S:    She used to have the nursing home. People used to go there- for – when they had their babies, didn’t they? Some of those who could afford to pay.

Mrs B:    Yeah, and ….

Q:    Was that the… I’ve heard about the bungalow, was that the same…? (Mrs S: No.) Not the bungalow, no.

Mrs B:    No. What-you-call-it lived in there, didn’t he? Um, er, whatever was his name? My Mum used to take us there for all our photos to be taken. He lived opposite the church in Guithavon Street. What was his name?

Mrs S:    Butcher.

Q:    Butcher?

Mrs S:    Butcher.

Q:    Was it Butcher? (Mrs B: No.) Because he was a photographer, wasn’t he?

Mrs B:    Oh, now I want to swear if I know.[tuts, pauses]

Mrs S:    I’ve only known Butcher, I think.

Mrs B:    No, in the bungalow, he was, um, he lived in there for years before – um – he used to keep it lovely, used to have, ornaments and things, um, standing all over the garden [probably means Fred Hayward at 55 Collingwood Road].

Mrs S:    Oh, you’re thinking about Mr ….

Q:    Oh, it’ll come to you. [All laugh]

Mrs B:    I can’t think of his name and I know it ever so well.

Q:    So he lived in the bungalow and had a business in Guithavon…. (Mrs B: Eh?)

Mrs S:    That’s at the top of the Valley, you’re thinking of, Mr …. (pause) We’re talking about the bungalow, the nursing home, … wasn’t you.

Q:    Yes.

Mrs B:    No, not that one…

Q:    Oh, the one on the corner

Mrs B:    The one on the corner.

Q:    Where Mr Pryor lives now.

Mrs S:    That’s the one, yes.

Mrs B:    Yeah, the bungalow was the – I went in there; I had Keith in there [i.e. the Nurses’ bungalow, 46 Collingwood Road]..

Mrs S:    Oh, I thought that was the one you was talking about, the bungalow. (Q: Yes)

Mrs B:    No, not that one, no. Keith was born in there ‘cos that was the nursing home. And they only had three beds.

Q:    Oh, so which was – I’ve got you all mixed up now, which was where Nurse Roberts lived, then?

Mrs B:    She lived in Collingwood Road, in one of the houses on the..(Q: I’ve got you..) on the right as you go down, in one of the red brick houses – I couldn’t tell you exactly…

Q:    But she had people in there as well?

Mrs S:    Yes. Then she had – ‘cos Mrs Pease went there, didn’t she? (Mrs B: Eh?) Mrs Pease went there, to Mrs Roberts. (Q: Mrs Peace, did she?) She lost her baby, didn’t she? Harold Pease’s wife.

Mrs B:    Oh no! That was another Roberts. (Mrs S: Oh, right). [Q laughs] She lived down Maldon Road, didn’t she? She had that big house – and I tell you, that big house…

[Both Mrs S & Q talking over each other] Mrs S: (????..) don’t know much about Witham yet (Q: we’ve done all right..) (Noise on tape) No, that house down Maldon Road, that stood just before you got to the river. That was on the left – the right as you went down, that stood up. I tell you who bought it. …

Mrs S:    Murphy? (Mrs B: Eh?) Murphy. Mr Murphy.

Mrs B:    Mr Murphy, yeah. He bought that house off… (Mrs S: Oh, I know now). And Mrs Roberts and her daughter lived in Chalks Road. You remember me talking about Phil Roberts? She lives in the end house [i.e. Alfrose, Chalks Road, Mrs Phyllis Joyce].

[All three talking over each other] Mrs S: End of your road. (Q: I’ve got you, yes):

Mrs B:    Yes, well her mother used to keep a nursing – used to go out nursing. She had a big house down Maldon Road. I think she left that to her daughter. Murphy bought it. He used to have a fish and chip shop, didn’t he? Murphy. (Mrs S: Yes) And he used to come round with, um, fruit, didn’t he, at one time? When I used to buy all the grapes. (Mrs S: Yes) When I was expecting. Sevenpence a pound. [Mrs B & Mrs S laugh] And I used look to see if I’d got enough to last me the weekend and I used to buy pounds and pounds of grapes.

[Q laughs]

Mrs S:    And Brazils when they were about.

Mrs B:    And Brazils, yeah. And I used to look at some of them, you know and some of them used to be ever so cheap then. Some of them would – ‘cos we never had much money then. And some of them used to turn your head on them and he used to say ‘Pick what you want’ and I used to stand there and go – great big box – and I used have about a great big bunch of grapes and I used to be always eating grapes and Brazils. When I was expecting my Jean. (Q:[ laughs] Oh dear.) And my husband came home with a bunch of grapes for me. I’d eat grapes, grapes, grapes when I was carrying her, him. My Dad used to say [laughs] – our toilet was up the top of the yard, you know. It was a proper flush toilet but it was up top of the yard. And there was a field over – just over the hedge, and I used to be terrified to go up there of a night. I used to say ‘Stand near the back door while I go up the toilet’. [All laugh] And the old wheat used to be rustling; that used to be ever so creepy. And sometimes at the end of the day, the time I’d be up there and I’d be eating Brazils and my Dad’d say ‘Who’s been eating nuts in the toil – in the lavatory?’ That used to be me, a’course. And I used to go to the pantry and get a grape and sometimes when you bite them, they’d crack and he used to say ‘What you eatin’ now?’ [All laugh]. Oh, it was ever so funny, years ago. An’ I use to go and stand there at the bottom of the passage and I used to be tremendous when I had my children, you know. And he used to say ‘You want to go in – you want to go indoors’. He didn’t think I ought to be standing down the passage having a look out, or anywhere. No, not them days they didn’t. Ain’t like they are now. They wouldn’t’ take no notice, now, do they?

Q:    What, you had to stop in? (Mrs B: Eh?) You had to stop in, did you?

Mrs B:    Well, I stopped – not stand out the front (Q: No) you know. Things were funny then.

Q:    Still, times change, don’t they?

Mrs B:    I used to walk, every week, up to the farm where my sister lived. [pause]. The one I told you, died with cancer under her teeth. (Q: Whitehead’s Farm.) I used to go up there and wash for fourteen, every week. And I used to go in the washhouse, was outside, and there used to be a pile of this and a pile of that and a pile of something else, I didn’t know where to start. The copper was on and I used to have to pump all the water, if there was none in the butts, if we hadn’t had no rain, there was none in the butts. It was damned hard work. I used to go up there and do her bedrooms out. Do the ceilings and do the walls. They used to be all mouldy, you know. It was ever such a damp old house, where they lived on the farm. And I used to trail up there with the pram, pushing all up them fields, do a day’s work and then come all the way home.

Q:    That was when she was still alive, was she (Mrs B: Eh?) That was just to help her out, you mean.

Mrs B:    Yeah, well, she had such a big family, you know. (Q: Yes. Quite) She had a tremendous…

Mrs S:    I used to go up sometimes. Like a pound of onions and dried egg, fruit, you know.

Mrs B:    We used to both go up when she was all right.

Q:    But you’d need the help, wouldn’t you?
(Mrs S & Q: [over] Mrs S: I didn’t help – [Q & Mrs S laugh] Q: Didn’t you?)

Mrs B:    we used to walk up there (Q: Keep her company) and going along, we used to pinch old Smith’s – there was a [Mrs B says something like ‘collerabby’] kohlrabi field, what they call kohlrabis, you know. (Q: Oh, I know, never had it). Well we used to leave the prams in the roadway like, when we were coming down the field. And we used to walk along the rows, pulling out – there used to be a lot of swedes in between ‘em – and we used to pull out the swedes, pull the leaves off and take em home. ‘Cos, swedes now are a awful price. How much’d you give for a swede?

Mrs S:    Oh, seven shillings there, now, for anything decent.

Mrs B:    (tuts) Used to be, we used to get ‘em for nothing, we used to pull ‘em out and put them in the pram, you know. Well, Grace, we was there, pulling them out once and your pram tipped up. [laughs over speech] (Q: Oh dear) We’ve had some fun, we have, when we were going out. And we used to go pea-picking together.

Mrs S:    I should like them times over again.

Mrs B:    Yeah. We used to go everywhere together. Cycling of a night when the children were all washed and in bed. See, where we were going pea picking the next day if we’d finished a field And one night …

Mrs S:    Getting brambles in your legs.

Mrs B:    Yeah, I’ll never forget that night when I said ‘Gawd help, I reckon they’re picking them tomorrow. We’ll go there when they pick them.’ Lovely peas they were. ‘Cos I wanted to get over there just to get a bit of a rise to see what the peas were like and they’d –[pause]– put a – there’d been a gap in the hedge and they’d put all dry hawthorn in. And I went through it and all up me leg I had – that was thick with hawthorns, all stuck right in me leg – took me ages when I got home to get some of ‘em out. And I think one was in for two or three weeks. (Mrs S: It was) Weren’t ‘alf sore. Couldn’t get it out, that got too deep. Was good job they were dry ones. (Q: Yes, quite). ‘Cos they all broke off you see. I went through the hedge and as I stepped on it, ‘Crack, crack, crack’ and through I went. But still went pea picking, though, didn’t we?

Mrs S:    Yes

Q:    So, did you go fruit picking then (Mrs B: Eh?) Did you go fruit picking then, or just when you were small?

Mrs B:    No, we never went fruit picking, did we?

Mrs S:    Not in them days, no, it was only in the younger days.

Mrs B:    We did all pea picking after I married. That was when I was young, we used to go fruit picking, when me Mum was alive.

Mrs S:    Then we’d go bean picking when they came on (Mrs B: Eh?)(Q: Beans?) We done a little bean picking down Brice’s Farm.

Mrs B:    We went bean picking, yeah.

Q:    Did your Mum….?

Mrs S:    [over] We went potato picking, one morning. Dreadful weren’t it.

Mrs B:    We went potato picking one morning. Yes, I’ll never forget that. We took some homemade wine – ‘cos I used to make a lot of wine, so did Grace. [Mrs S laughs] And, er, our food, you know. [said in disgust] Potatoes ! Oh, we’d got to do the harrows, hadn’t we? Somebody’d…

Mrs S:    They’d done the tops; we had to do the harrows.

Mrs B:    And we’d got to do the – I said ‘I’m not doing ‘arrows! We only pick the potatoes up in the rows’. Cos you only – you had your apron and you picked one up here and one up over there. What’s left after they harrow the ground level, you know? I said ‘They’ll have to pick them up who’s picked up the potatoes in the rows,’ you know. So we set about and we started picking them up in the rows. I picked one bucketful up and the – little old potatoes like that, they were new ones. I tipped ‘em in me pram! [All laugh] Took the pads out the bottom and put them in the bottom. ‘Cos years ago the prams had a bottom in the pram, didn’t they? (Q: Oh I know.) And they had big pads along and I used to have a pillow, white pillow in mine for the baby to lay on and the [???] on. Take ‘em all out. And I tipped our peas – used to fetch about half a bag of peas home every day when we went pea picking (Q: [tuts] Yes) And sit and shell them and cook em for tea. Didn’t we? With new potatoes and that. ‘Cos we used to have, husbands had allotment. And, er, I said ‘I a’nt picking them potatoes up, little tiny things’. So I tipped the bucketful in, what I’d picked up in me pram, and went and sat under a tree, [Mrs S  laughs] drinking our homemade wine and eating our dinner. So the foreman come past; so he looked and said ‘British workers’! So I thought, ’Yeah, I’m picking them potatoes up!’ They were terrible. We never done nothing that day did we?’

Mrs S:    No, we came home.

Mrs B:    Went out for nothing that day.

Mrs S:    Ah, well. Made a bit of fun.

Q:    When you went with your Mum, did you go during school time?

Mrs B:    All school holidays, yeah.

Q:    But did you say your mother took you off school, to go?

Mrs B:    Oh, they wouldn’t let you – well, they would but – er – old Mr Eldridge then – Eldridge his name was – he used to come round with milk. And he used to be the School Board man – he used to come and fetch us out the fields. (Q: Really?) I remember years – one year my mother sent us picking up nasturtiums on the trial ground. For, be for Cooper Tabor or one of them. And they’d pull the nasturtiums up and shake all the seeds off and they lay – and you were on your hands and knees (Q: Goodness!) and you’re picking all these little nasturtium seeds up, size of your finger. You used to have to pick them all up, you know and put ‘em in something and you used to get so much – and old Eldridge found we weren’t at school and he come up there and found us – we had to go home! (Q: Really?) Cos they’d go – you see, they’d go to the boss and say we’re school age, not supposed to be there. But, um, I went picking up nasturtiums – my poor old mother had to send us to do something. Never had much money them days, and a big family, you know. There was a big family of us.

Q:    When she did the seeds at home, was that like the same sort of job as what you did?

Mrs B:    Yeah, pea sorting. Us kids had to sit and all, and do ‘em. (Q: Did you?) Had to sit with a lamp in the middle of the table them days, there was no gas or electric. We had a big double burner lamp. And the peas all on the coarse cloth on the table and us kids used to have sit round there with a tin in the front or some sort of dish and sort out the bad ones and pull the good ones down, to help her, like. We used to hate it like when we’d be coming home from school on a dinnertime, and see poor old George, what you call, say ‘Peas are coming in, she’s sorting tonight’. We’d be glad when they were done, sometimes you’d have two or three nights with none if you got them done early. And they used to come round with a lorry and wheel these great big two-hundredweight sacks in.

And we used to have them in our front room, didn’t we? I didn’t like them; we used to cover them over with a cloth, but we had to have them there because we had no other room for them. (Q: This was at Church Street?) Yeah, up Church Street. We done them for a long time, didn’t we? (Mrs S: Yes. Several years.) Used to get paid once a month. Never got much. We used to have to do a two-hundredweight sack for about half a crown.

Mrs S:    Though Christmas time we use to try and get to Colchester, to spend our money.

Mrs B:    Eh? Oh yeah, we used to go to Colchester, get all the kids’ presents out of Marks. And we used to come home loaded; we used to get lovely presents there for about two and six. Lovely annuals and, um, cars, didn’t we; all sorts for them; we used to buy for them. We used to come home loaded! We used to spend all our money on the kids, what we got Christmas time.

Mrs S:    …Christmas time. That was our treat, really, wasn’t it?

Mrs B:    Yes.

Q:    What did you used to have at Christmas, when you were little? (Mrs B: Eh?) When you were small, what did you used to do at Christmas, then?

Mrs S:    Oh we used to…

Mrs B:    (speaking over): Oh, we had a Christmas tree and, but we never had no presents, not like they have now, like all the children have. I mean, we never knew what dolls and that were, when we were young. We used to hang a stocking up. And we used to get it full of fruit and sweets and all that sort of thing. Used to have a, always remember, we used to have apple or orange in the toe.

(Mrs S:    That’s right) Used to put a clean stocking up, ‘cos you used to have black stockings then.

And a foot full of nuts. An orange in the heel and then sweets or something, always used to hang a stocking up but we never used to get toys, you know. Not then. Ain’t like the kids today.

Q:    So what did you used to play, if you had time to play, what did you used to play?

Mrs B:    Oh we used to – different to the kids today – do you know, when, in the summer, when we weren’t in the fields, like when, sometimes, have a holiday in the – my Mum used to give us something to eat and we used to have a bottle – take a bottle of water them days. And something to eat and we’d go down them meadows, down Maldon Road and we used to play down there; making daisy chains and all that sort of thing and amuse ourself all day. But the kids today don’t do that. (Q: Yes. Mrs S: Oh no.)

I mean, there’s my son’s children. I mean, they’ve got everything you could think of to play with. They’ve all got bicycles, even to the one what’s two. And do you know, Christmas time, Lloyd had all sorts of smaller presents and he had one, he had a bike forty pounds. And he had, er, Evel Knievel like motorbike, and you wind it up – you never heard such a row! And that runs and that jumps over a ramp. That was, I think Joan said eight pounds. And he said ‘I didn’t have much for Christmas ‘cos I had me bike!’

And he had all sorts of things. His bike was forty pounds. New bike. Somebody stole one off – out the front garden. They all had one. And poor Lloyd; I don’t know what happened to his bike. Keith said he shouldn’t have another one ‘cos he didn’t take care of ‘em. And Christmas before. They spent hundreds of pounds on them kids. They bought a rocking horse – tremendous big rocking horse. Alison gets on it – she’s nine – that’s a great big brown hairy one, you know, with the white mane and a white tail. And that goes backwards and forwards on the wooden thing. And they had, she had, um, he bought that for the little ones ‘cos he said that’d last them all, you know. That lasts. Um, Lloyd had, um, go-kart – that was fifty pounds. That was the Christmas before. Alison had the table and the radiogram. Proper big one like you’d buy for yourself. And records. And the table was in pieces. I remember Christmas Eve I was down there, they were putting the table up. It was a lovely table – she’s got it standing in her bedroom with the radiogram on. With a Perspex, something like Perspex, ain’t it? Top’s not glass but it looks like glass. And they have lovely presents, but, they don’t take no notice of them. They have got all sorts. But they’ve all got a bike now; they had one for their birthday. Lloyd had a new one. Alison had a second-hand one. Her brother, Joan’s brother-in-law done it up. Done it like a new one. And he even done the little one – Lisa had one. They had to get – she couldn’t ride a two-wheeler properly so they had to get them, like a pair of them balancing wheels, them little wheels they’ve got – she’s got that fixed on. She had one. And Helen, too, had one them little ones with the wooden seats and her brother in law done that up in and done it in pale pink seat with a Disney thing on the – picture on it – and that was ever so – he done them lovely – done them like new, you know.

Q:    I remember you said you used to have a bike – to come to Witham [to Mrs Springett].

Mrs B:    All ours had bikes.

[All talking over each other] (Mrs S: Yes I used to . Q: Even when you come to Witham? To work, though? (Mrs B: Yes) That must have been….)

Mrs B:    Her Bill, well, Cecil his name is really, Him and Edie are about the same age. (Q: Yes.)
And they always used to play together. And they both had a bicycle didn’t they? (Mrs S: Yes) And they both had a motor car. Lovely motor cars. And they used to bike about all over the – all round the gardens and that. And they used to play for hours, you know. They played together.

Mrs S:    No trouble, were they?

Mrs B:    No! Once or twice they got out didn’t they, and we had to go and look for them. Once they were going over the station bridge. Another time they were going around the allotments. We found them with a pail and spade. They’d gone out the garden.

Side 6

[All laughing]

Mrs B:    …Moys’ coal carts, horse and carts, they used to be all scrubbed out clean and all seats put in them and all trimmed up with flags and everything and he’d go clomp, clomp, clomp all to walk to Mill Beach in the coal carts, all the school kids – he used to – we used to love it, we used think that it was lovely, you know. Well, I always remember going in the coal cart. They were scrubbed out clean, lovely and clean, you know.  And, I don’t know how many there used to be, there must have been quite a lot, ‘cos they didn’t hold many, them coal carts. And they used to be them with the sides up then, not the flats like they have now.  And we used to have our school outings in them.  And on a Sunday, sometimes – where me Mum and all of them – they used to get a trip up.  Mr Ottley, in Witham then, used to keep – he used to do weddings with carriage and pairs.  And he used to get what they call brakes, they were – hold a good few, you know, and we used to have them some Sundays. They’d have all the different people what we knew round about – lived round about us – we all used to go off just about two o’clock and come back late on Sunday night and he used to take us all out on a outing like that.  We used to go all round the country and stop here and there, you know. And that used to be a treat, because we never got out much them days, not when we were kids, not a lot. But as I said, when we had our children, we used go out, when we was pea picking, we used to go to Clacton some Sundays. (Mrs S: Yes) Some Sundays we used to go to Southend, Maldon. Take our meals with us, and the men used to go and get a drink, you know.  And fetch us a drink. We used take the children to Maldon – we used to have lovely days, didn’t we? (Mrs S: Oh yes). Really enjoy it, take ham sandwiches and cake and biscuits and all that sort of thing. And another thing…..

Mrs S:    We used to stay in nearly all day Saturday cooking.

Q:    Cooking on Saturday? (Mrs B: Yeah.)

Mrs B:    Oh, used to make all sorts. Sponges and cheesecakes and tarts and buns and everything. Used to make them for us to take in the fields for the week, didn’t we?

Mrs S:    That’s right.

Q:    What did you have when you went out with your mother? You’d take – did you take your food with you then, as well, would you?

Mrs B:    Yes, mostly usually used to take food with us.  Well them days, you couldn’t go out and buy food like you can now, even if you could, we used to – they used to stop and have a drink at a pub and you could get something to eat and biscuits and all sorts.

Q:    Did your Dads used to come?

Mrs B:    Yeah, they all – all the families used to go.

______________________________________________

 

Tape 009. Mr Charlie Poulter, sides 1 and 2

Tape 9

Mr Charlie Poulter was born in 1902, and was interviewed on 11 March 1977, when he lived at 111 Cressing Road, Witham.

For more information about him and the Poulter family, see the the notes in the People category headed Poulter family.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

__________________________________________________

Side 1

Q:    How long did you do that for?

Mr P:    Oh, it’s only like when I go out.

Q:    All the same, it’s nice to remember things isn’t it? How long did you do that for?

Mr P:    Oh, I don’t, it’s only like when I go out, anyway I take a, take me cine camera and take some, you know, as, or take pictures of carnival and one thing and another.

Q:    I remember you taking a picture of the carnival when I was on the float?

Mr P:    Oh, yes I’ve got that on one (Q: I’ve never seen that.) Yes.

Q:    How long have you had it for, the cine?


The top end of Newland Street, as discussed below.
The top end of Newland Street, as discussed below.

Mr P:    I can remember that (Q: Can you?), yes, this, weren’t much more than a dirt road, you know, no proper paths, that was a college what was the old cinema [tall pale building on the left, now no.18]. I do know that, well, my mother was cook there for a time. (Q: What, at the college?) At the college, yes, that was called Whitehall College. The headmaster’s name was Dimmock, Mr Dimmock. She cooked in there part-time.

Well then this, Freebournes [on right, with gables, now no.3], that was a dairy there, they had cows out in the fields at the back and we used to go up there when we was children you know and get skimmed milk, for tuppence a quart, that was all right for making puddings you know, anything like that. And this was a doctor’s house [tall, on right, behind tree, now no.5, High House]. (Q: And that would be what?] Dr Payne lived in that big house, what Stoffer had (Q: Oh, I know it’s a restaurant isn’t it?).

Yea, (Q: I don’t know how old all these are, they’re probably all a bit different, you know.) Well this, this one would be, what [pause], round about seventy year old. (Q: Really. ‘Cos I’ve forgotten how old you are, is that a secret, how old you are?) What? (I’ve forgotten how old you are, is that a secret?) I’m coming up seventy-five. (Are you really, my goodness?)

Q:    Was your mother a cook there when you were a boy then, so that you can remember it?

Mr P:    Yes, I remember all that, that college.

Q:    Did they, was it a boarding ….? People, the kids stayed there, did they?

Mr P:    They were boarders, yes, they lived in. Yes, I remember them old iron posts up there but this is a retake. (Q: Yes, it looks newer than it is, doesn’t it, yes. I tell you what some of these ones with the numbers.)

Narrow part of Newland Street c.1900, as discussed below
Narrow part of Newland Street c.1900, as discussed below

If that was as old as that one, that would look as old as that, but you see this has been a retake. (Q: I think these were postcards that people took.) That was Green’s, the chemist [extreme left with corner door, now no.64]. The old International Stores too, here, look [right, tall, with name, now c.43]. (Q: Yes, that’s been there a while hasn’t it?) Yes [pause] This was a later date too, because of the paths and the road has been done up a bit, not quite so old as that one.

(Q: Because you said, that’s got the Spread Eagle, hasn’t it [on right with gables, now no.49], is it that where you said your father, was it the Spread Eagle where you said your dad had the ….?) The Spread Eagle, yes, in the yard down, through there, go through that archway down the bottom there’s a yard, there’s a, where I was born. (Q: Oh, I see. [Pause] So there was a cottage there too I suppose?).

Used to be baker’s, baker’s cake shop there [on left with white notice, next to low buildings, now no.60], been there for years and years and it changed hands, you know, different people, people named Kuhn, and er I can’t think of the other people took after them, and Pratt, that was the name of some people what had it.


The narrow part of Newland Street, south side, as discussed below
The narrow part of Newland Street, south side, as discussed below

And this is another older one [Looking at photo] (Q: What, because of the road?) Very old by the children, you know, I should imagine they stand there waiting to go across the road, the carts, [chuckle] that looks like a Council cart (Q: Really?) emptying the dustbins or maybe clearing up the road, you know. (Q: Oh, yes.) You know, that time of day when I was a lad like that, we had any snow, we didn’t have about three or four men worked on the Council then, they always come round, scraping the snow all off the paths and they had these, tumbrils we called them, come along, shovel all the snow away and cart it away. (Q: Really?). They don’t even blow it off the paths now do they?

Q:    So what would people do with, you say they might be collecting the rubbish, what would people do with the rubbish, oh, you mean on the paths (Mr P: On the paths, yes) What did people do with their own rubbish those days?

Mr P:    Oh, they’d take it down the sewerage farm. [probably meaning what the Council carts got] (Q: Oh, they had to take it did they?) Anything they used to collect they take it down the sewerage farm. (Q: Still I suppose people didn’t have so much did they?) Oh, Green’s they’ve got there, chemist, yes, remember that [off the left edge, no.64]

Q:    Did you used to have to go shopping? When you were a kiddy did they send you out shopping and things?

Mr P:    No, mother done most of it, I s’pose if she wanted anything, you know, we used to go and get it, and it used to make me laugh because if anybody said would, ask them to go and get something from the shop, mother always used to say ‘Don’t you take anything!’ (Q: Really?) [Laugh] Always said that. [Laugh] [Looking at more photos]


The wide part of Newland Street, discussed below
The wide part of Newland Street, discussed below

Oh, yes, Bradshaw’s [extreme left. lots of awnings, now no. 72], that was a clothing shop., Pluck’s, boot [on left, further up, awnings, name on wall, now no.68] and, I always remember that shop had a big window at the side and down the road, Guithavon Street when there, and they had shoes stand on stands and, big pane of glass we used to go and push the pane of glass and make the shoes move and shake ‘em off the, off the stands. [Laughter]

Q:    Because, of course, the school was down there wasn’t it (Mr P: School down there), so you had to go past there [National School, now Guithavon Street car park]

Mr P:    Yes, the school I went to. So, that’s the old Barclay’s bank there (Q: Oh, yea.) Used to be Barclays bank [on right, tall, second from edge, now no.61] (Q: Yes.) and that big house there was a doctor lived in that big one what’s the Midland bank now [just past Barclays, no.57]. (Q: Oh, I see.) A Doctor Coombe lived in there. I forget the name of the people who had Mondy’s shop then, that’s always been a whatsname, a hardware and ironmongers [on right edge, no. 63].

The wide part of Newland Street, c.1900, discussed below.
The wide part of Newland Street, c.1900, discussed below.

[pause, looking at another photo, above] Coker and Rice, they were furniture, used to make furniture and that [extreme left with clock, burnt down in 1910, now URC is behind]. That part, later on was the old Tory Club [upstairs?] (Q: Course, yes, that’s right, I thought I’d seen that before.) Coker and Rice had their yard and workshop over the road here, at the back of Parion Products that was [now no.67, not on photo]  you know, that’s the estate agents now, isn’t it, up that yard between, up the baker’s side of Gilbert’s the bakers [now no.83] you go up there (Q: Oh, I know.) they had a big workshop up there. (Q: Did they?) That’s what we used to call the Brush Yard, because there was a brush workshop up there, they used to make brushes and things [between nos.67 and 83, not on photo]. The old dresses, look, and hats.

Q:    I remember you telling me there was a lot of little cottages up those yards in those days, was there some up the Brush Yard as well?

Mr P:    Yes, oh, yes, er several cottages up there and there were cottages all up, all nearly every yard in Witham. Yes. Bridge Street all, no end of cottages up yards and, and, then where Parion Products is now, their showground, you know, where they’ve got their caravans, there was cottages up there [now nos. 102-116, Newland Court, off left of photo]. Oh, dear, oh, dear, funny old place. (Q: Sorry, you were talking about the hats.) Yes, that used to be a pawnbrokers, remember that, Sammy Page [left side, small, behind the girls, now no.86], that used to be the post office [single storey with sun on end, now no.84]. (Q: Oh, I know yes.) Then this is called London House that what used to be, there was a grocers part of it just there, and next door was a place like drapery shop and all like that, you know [tall, right of PO and other small building, now nos.74-76]

Q:    Did people go to the pawnbrokers a lot those days you reckon?

Mr P:    Not a lot, you know, he used to buy second hand clothes and sell second hand clothes and that, Sammy Page his name was, but he was a pawnbrokers, but he never done much in the pawnbroking line in Witham, you know, that didn’t take on very well, (Q: What, you didn’t think people ….) only in the bigger towns where you get the pawnbroker used to do big business. [Pause] These are old aren’t they, (Q: Yes, they are, aren’t they?) very old. [Pause] Course, that’s where Holt is now, that place [behind left girl and small cart, now no.88] (Q: Yes.) This is all down, it’s all open there now where they, in front of the chapel wasn’t it? (Q: Yes, of course, that’s right, but I suppose you can remember that being there can you, the club? [i.e between 88 Newland Street and 90 Newland Street) Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes, I remember when it was burnt down [1910]. London House, there y’are, look, drapery store, remember what I said [nos.74-76, see above]? (Q: Oh, yes, that’s right, you’re memory’s good isn’t it?) That used to be named Pilcher’s, they were more or less drapery, babies clothes and one, things like that, ribbons and all things like that, you know. Cor, this is an older one, yes, very old. See there’s clock there you see, always remember that big telegraph post there [outside no. 84, then post office] (Q: Really?) [Pause]

Q:    The clothes are different aren’t they?

Mr P:    We all used to wear them sort of clothes in, knickerbocker trousers come to the knee, little Norfolk jackets, you know [laugh] and hard collars, you used to wash them every day, you know, they, stiff stuff, celluloid stuff, you know, white.

Q:    I wonder, where would your mother used to buy the clothes? Would you used to buy the clothes ready made or make …?

Mr P:    She’d make most of them, make ‘em.

Q:    What, your mother made them?


Wide part of Newland Street, discussed below, with Crittall's bus
Wide part of Newland Street, discussed below, with Crittall’s bus

Mr P:    Well, this is a later one ainnit? [looking at photo, see picture 2]. There’s the clock on there now, look. (Q: Oh, yes, that’s right, yes.) A bank on the top. Mondy’s [on right, with goods on pavement]

. This is a later one, because there’s the old Silver End bus there, that used to run from Braintree to Silver End to Silver End to Witham, Crittall’s, owned by Crittall’s. (Q: Oh, I never heard of that, oh, I’ve never noticed that, let’s have a look.) Yes, that’s the Silver End bus [extreme left]. (Q: I never noticed that one there, yes.) Yes. (Q: That was just for people to go to work mainly?)

Bottom of Newland Street, discussed below.
Bottom of Newland Street, discussed below.
Sketch for the above photo. The numbers appear in square brackets in the text
Sketch for the above photo. The numbers appear in square brackets in the text

Doctor’s [1], still the doctor’s, that was the doctor’s then, I don’t know when, it ain’t got no date on it [now no.129]. (Q: It hasn’t, no). The old horse and cart [2], look, looked like a Council cart, quite possible. Now, that er, when we moved out of Eagle Yard we moved into this house here [3] [probably now no.116, since demolished, next to 118]. That one there [4], it used to be a watch makers, that shop, little window there, the man’s name was Graves [now no.118].

And that [5] was a sweet shop, people named, well, that was a lodging house and sweet shop, they used to take in people that want lodgings, Darby was their name [next to the Poulters’]. (Q: I see.) And then that’s part of it there, well that’s the next one [next to Darby, with gable] [6] there’s a door just there, old Jim Porter, he was a plumber and all done all plumbing work and that, well he was a fireman as well, but he died with the DTs. He used to drink a lot. They used to in them days, the old tradesmen didn’t they?

That house there, called the Gables, the doctors were all born in that house [right of pic, with gables, left of [1] now nos.125 and 127], Doctor Gimsons, under these sister[?], when they took over this places, the doctors, first of all they were up at that place now, little higher up was the doctors first of all, Doctor Gimsons, the two doctors, that was that big house, you know the Co-op, then there’s a pair of big houses there. (Q: Oh, I know, big, very tall ones, they’ve been empty for a bit.) Yes, that’s right, well the one nearest towards here was the one that was the doctors [now no.119]. (Q: Oh, I didn’t know that, yes. I thought they’d been there all the time) And then they, for some reason, I don’t know why they moved out of that, anyway, they went into this place here [no.129, extreme right of pic] and the doctors’ sister lived in that Gables. (Q: Yes, I see.) She married a man named Mr Brandt.

Bottom of Newland Street, south side, as discussed below.

Bottom of Newland Street, south side, as discussed below.


Q:    So, you say they were born in the Gables (Mr P: The Gables, yes), they all lived there?
Mr P:    As far as I can remember about it, you know. That’s the [present] doctors house, this one [extreme right, now no.129] , some poor, I forget the name of the old lady what lived in that one, that smallish, lower house there [left of the Gables, now no.121], but this tall one there [left of 121, tall, sun on side, set back, now no.119], that’s the one that was the doctors. Then the other one there [left of 119, same height, now no.117], a Mr Beadle lived in that, and then of course there was the Co-op [now no.115] and next to the Co-op is a big house that a Miss, Misses Pattisson lived there [now no.113, Pelican House, corner of Kings Chase], there were two lad-, two Miss Pattissons and a brother, well then they moved out of that and went into Collingwood Road, the one where Mr Sparrow lives now [now no.16 Collingwood Road, Pelican Cottage]. (Q: Oh, really?) And, then the Co-op took that over and, they sort of made it a bigger shop [now no.113]. This is still an old, you can tell that by their dresses look, clothes.

Q:    Did you used to, the Co-op was started then when you were small was it?

Mr P:    The Co-op’s always been there as far as I can remember, way back when I was a little boy.

Q:    Was the Co-op committee, I don’t suppose you can remember about, that ran the Co-op, was that quite strong in those days?

Mr P:    Well, there’d be one or two running, but, of course, than that gradually built up and then you get more on the committee, used to be about two or three on it I suppose at that day.


Bridge Street, discussed below, west end, with Mr Fleuty,
Bridge Street, discussed below, west end, with Mr Fleuty,

[Looking at new photo, see above] And this is the top end of Bridge Street. Now, you see, these are almshouses here [row, on left, behind gas lamp, was 50-58 Bridge Street, now demolished]. (Q: I think they were just about there when we first came.) Yes, I should imagine. Now, that one there, my grandmother lived there and she died in that one. (Q: Goodness, what’s that, the third one along? [probably no.54] I used to know all the old ladies what lived in there, and then coming down here there was more cottages here, and then there was a butcher’s shop there, what’s now that motor cycle shop [now no.30, past the almshouses]. (Q: Oh, I see.) Not the big building, the one at the side, there’s a little low window, like a shop window at the side, well that used to be a butcher’s shop and he used to have a slaughter house at the back. (Q: Really?)

Now, that house there, people named Fenner lived in there. [right foreground; William Fenner was at 81 Bridge Street in 1925 electoral register] Do you know, do you ever go to the butcher’s round St Nicholas Road, do you know a Mr Fenner in there, well, he, ‘cause he only works part-time (Q: Oh, I think I know who you mean, yes), short, fat man, well, he was, he was born in there, I’m sure he was, they lived in there.

This is Bridge Street. (Q: There were a lot more houses there in those days weren’t there?) And just behind this house [i.e. round corner to right, in Howbridge Road] there’s a wheelwrights shop, the man used to make wheels for, for carts or anything in that line, farm wagons and that and then they used to make the wheels and take ‘em down to, more often than not, down to blacksmith’s near the Crotchet you know where the Crotchet is, used to be next door to that, the blacksmith’s shop [now 130 Newland Street], they used to make the tyres there and heat them in the, they’d got a thing, big metal plate on the back with a spike in the middle, used to make these tyres, steel tyres in the fire, bend ‘em round, got them singing[?] away, you put them, big rollers at the back of the shop, make the tyres and get them hot, get ‘em red hot, and weld it into the ring, make it round, get it round, then go and lay this wooden wheel over this big iron plate, put the tyre on, hammer it on, then put water on to cool it down.

Q:    So kids would go and watch that?

Mr P:    Oh, yes, oh we used to go and watch them shoe the horses.


Bridge Street, looking west, discussed below.
Bridge Street, looking west, discussed below.

[Looking at new photo] There’s another one of Bridge Street the other way, the old cottage used to stick out there [with gable, next to 9 Bridge Street], course, that’s all pulled down now, and there’s the Morning Star there [21 Bridge Street], well, of course that’s all back now, then the George and Dragon just there, just a way up [29 Bridge Street].

Q:    That was different, wasn’t it?


Bottom of Newland Street,discussed below
Bottom of Newland Street,discussed below

Sketch for photo 5
Sketch for photo above. Numbers are in square brackets in the text. The sketch does not include the building at the extreme right (Ellis)

Mr P:    Course those places still stand there. Ah, now I do know this [looking at new photo. When we moved out of there [116 Newland Street] , we went into that one there [3] [147 Newland Street].

Q:    Really? What, the one this end, next to the little …?

Mr P:    This one [1]. This one, what’s Key’s now, that hasn’t altered at all, has it [151 Newland Street]? But this is all down, that [2] used to be Glover’s the cycle shop [149 Newland Street] (Q: Really?). Cycle, motor, he was the first man in Witham to have a motor car, Joe Glover. Well, then we went into this place [3], (Q: Next to it?). there’s three windows there, two doors, it was a double house, we took that on [147 Newland Street].

That’s [4] a little grocer’s shop called Wood, the old man used to, Wood, he was a funny old boy he was [145 Newland Street]. That [5] used to be Sorrell’s the butcher’s with the shade out [143 Newland Street].

The old Globe Inn [6, on the left], well, course, that hasn’t been a pub for a long, long while, that’s a aquarium shop now, fishes, fish and all like that [132 Newland Street] (Q: That’s right, yes).

There’s [7] the blacksmith’s shop look (Q: Oh, yes) there, that little black one [130 Newland Street] (Q: Little one), and [8] the Crotchet. And that one there [9] is still what’s part of, part of Coates now, that’s called the Blue Post house, it used to be the coaching house, there’s a big yard at the side where they used to pull in to change the horses there, for the coaches to go through from London, Colchester and London [128 Newland Street; was Blue Posts in 19th century; so this is from what Charlie has heard, not his memories]

Q:    They still did that when you were in there, did they?

Mr P:    Mail coaches.

Q:    Was it an inn or did they just use it as well, was it a pub as well?

Mr P:    No, wasn’t a pub. The Crotchet, that one, then the Swan back here. Well then, where you see that board [10], that was a lodging house called the Carpenter’s Arms, see that board hanging out there [141 Newland Street]? (Q: I know, sticking out just near that little car?) By the side of the butcher’s.

Q:    What sort of people would stop in the lodging house?

Mr P:    Well, roadsters, or people used to come pea picking, you know, in the summer time (Q: Of course, yes.) pea picking and that and used to stop there the night. We’ve got, one, there’s two people in Witham now who used to be one of, of the family that used to lodge there, when they come into Witham pea picking, then they settled in Witham. (Q: I see.)

I did not have this photo when I saw Charlie. It shows a similar view to the last one, and probably includes Thomas William Poulter, father of Charlie and Albert. With dark clothes and a light hat, standing in front of his front door, i.e. the furthest right door in the photo
I did not have this photo when I saw Charlie. It shows a similar view to the last one, and probably includes Thomas William Poulter, father of Charlie and Albert. With dark clothes and a light hat, standing in front of his front door, i.e. the furthest right door in the photo.

Q:    Did you used to have to go out working like that when you were young?

Mr P:    Oh, we used to go in, in the fruit fields. (Q: Did you?) We used to walk to, just this side of Hatfield Peverel, picking fruit, in the summer time, we used to do that to earn our clothes for the winter. (Q: I see, yes.) We used to leave home, we start 6 o’clock in the morning in the field[?], used to leave home about 5 o’clock, get up about quarter to five and get ready and start walking up, you see, no transport in them days [laugh], we used to walk there and get, we used to pick, there was strawberries, raspberries, blackcurrants, redcurrants, gooseberries, and there used to be little strawberries called scarlets, they were, used to put them in tubs and take ‘em away, go to the jam factory, make jam, but the big strawberries, you know, like what you buy today in the shops, they, they were bought, well, people used to buy them for sort, of, fruit for lunch or tea time, like that.

Q:    So that was, what, in the summer holidays?

Mr P:    Yes, when we had the six weeks holidays, ‘cause we used to have, used to have Whitsun, Easter, Whitsun, there was no half term in those days, we used to have Good Friday, and the Monday, Good Friday, Saturday, Sunday and the Monday, and Whitsun used to be just the Sunday and the Mon-, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, and then in the summer time we used to have six weeks holiday, er late June to August time, so we had the six weeks anyway. Then September we had a week off, what they called blackberrying holiday, whether it was for blackberrying or not I don’t know and that’s the only one we had, and we had Christmas, a few days for Christmas.

Q:    So they didn’t ever take you off school to go fruit picking?

Mr P:    Oh, oh, no, no. Oh, that sort of thing wasn’t thought of in those days, taking time off, you know, oh, no you daren’t take time off, you’d soon have the school inspector round after you. Yes, I em, I don’t remember ever having any time off from school, only when I was perhaps, had measles or mumps or anything like that. I had a half a day when my father died, that’s all. Apart from illness, you know.

Q:    When did your father die? You were still at school?

Mr P:    My father? Nineteen hundred and eleven.

Q:    What was his first name?

Mr P:    Er, Thomas.

Q:    Oh, right, so if I read about him I’ll know who he was. So what was your mother’s first name?

Mr P:    Er, Emily.

Q:    Did she live longer than him?

Mr P:    Oh, yes, well he died in nineteen hundred and eleven and I was only about nine and a half then, and he was 64, he went into hospital for an operation for gall stones and er, operated, but they couldn’t do nothing and he just died. But today that’s just nothing is it, gall stones. And, of course, mother wasn’t so old as him, of course, there weren’t no dole and no relief or anything as today. (Q: I was going to say, how did she manage?) My mother used to take in washing and, one thing and another, try and make ends meet. Well, we did have a, a horse and a cart and had a greengrocery round, we used to, you know where the fire station is, up the Hatfield Road? (Q: The new one? Yes.) Well we had, my father had a bit of ground up there, further back from the road, about three acres, we used to grow a lot of vegetables there, and we used to go round, my brother used to go round selling em on the, twice a week on the Wednesday and Saturday, course I used to go round with em Saturday.

Q:    He was older than you was he? Your brother was older than you?

Mr P:     Oh, yes, yes, he’d left school then.

Q:    What was his name?

Mr P:    Er, it was Thomas. (Q: He was Thomas as well, so he was living at home but …) Oh, yes (Q: So he could help out?) there was five of us at home then (Q: Was there?). When my father died. Mother had a terrible job to make ends meet, well, they did in those days didn’t they, people used to, have to make clothes and repair their old ones and one thing and another.

Q:    Was there no, I was just thinking was there sort of charity or relief of any sort at all if you were desperate, what would happen?

Mr P:    Well there was a Poor Law relief then in those days but, what it was it was, well, mother never tried for it, she, you know, she said that was charity, she didn’t believe in charity [laugh]. A lot of the old people today don’t, do they? In fact, when she was, when we lived in Cressing Road, when I lived further up [Charlie at 111 Cressing Road], she lived down the bottom end, she, only getting ten bob a week then, pension, old age pension. And I got on to her about getting some more help from people at Braintree, you know, social security, but oh she stormed, she didn’t want charity, I said ‘It’s not charity’, I said, ‘you pay for it’, anyway I got a man to come and, he come and see her, and he said we’ve granted your mother some more money, and one thing and another. Only thing, at that time of the day I was out of work, so he said ‘The committee would like to know how you’re gonna pay it back?’. I said ‘Not at all’. ‘What do you mean?’. I said ‘I’m not paying it back’. I said ‘This extra money you’re giving my mother’, I said ‘it’s been contributed for’. I said ‘And therefore’, I said ‘I’m not in a position of paying any of it back. I don’t intend to anyway’. He didn’t think much of that. [Laugh]

Q:    So what work did you do, what age would you be when you left school?

Mr P:    Thirteen.

Q:    So what did you do then?

Mr P:    I went, well for about a month, I went to , for about a month I went, em, work down, well, where part of the Bramston unit is now, was a market gardener, used to grow flowers and vegetables, tomatoes, cucumbers, and I worked there for a month, and I didn’t think much of that so, the man up the street here, next to (Q: Which one are we after?) no, not that one [looking through photos] a bit higher, the next one. Well here, that one there, not that one, that one there, he was a shoe maker, a Mr Eve, and I went there in 1915, 1915, to learn the trade, two bob a week. (Q: I see, what, they give you two bob or did you give them two bob!) Two bob a week to learn the trade that’s what I had in those days, and after I learned the trade I went to Hoffman’s, and at the end of, I was getting half a crown then, at the end of the time and er, course mother said, ‘Well perhaps, I think, wouldn’t be a bad idea if we got somewhere you could get more money’, of course, you know, a bit of a job. So my sister, who, older sister, she’s dead now, who worked at Hoffman’s, she got me a job there, half a crown, went to thirty-seven bob [Laugh]. We really, like a fortune in those days wasn’t it? Oh, dear.

Q:    So that was just, so what did you do (Mr P: that was after the War [First World War) what did you do at Hoffman’s?

Mr P:    On the machines, grinding machines.

Q:    So how long did you stop there for?

Mr P:    Oh, I suppose well I was there about [pause] couple of years, couple or three years, something like that, three, might have been four years, then I came back and er, [door bell rings, tape off and on] Come back, we lived, my mother lived there, you see, we lived there (Q: You were still living there, yes?) and em, my brother and me started up with a shoe repairing shop there.

Q:    I see. And which was that brother, that was, not Thomas?

Mr P:    Thomas. (Q: That was Thomas, oh, I see.) Well, though he didn’t know much about the trade, you see, he sort of helped. I was the tradesman. We used to do a lot of work there.

Q:    Did you say your father ended up doing shoe …?

Mr P:    No, no, not my father. He died. He, actually my father was a job master. Now, you’ll know, you’ll be like a lot of people, won’t know what a job master is. Well, a job master in those days was like a taxi proprietor today. Instead of having cars, they had horse and carriages, and he used to do weddings, funerals, parties out, because he used, he had a, what er, what you call a waggonette, that would be drawn by one horse and would hold about eight people. Well, then he also had a, what they call a brake which was a tall vehicle, used to be pulled by two, sometimes four, horses, which’d hold about .… [tape ends]

Side 2

Mr P:    …. biggish house just here isn’t there. It’s on Bridge Street, there’s nothing there now, because, I see, RAFA Club. (Q: Course, yes, that’s right.) Well, the other side of this road, Spinks Lane here, there’s a biggish house (Q: Oh, I know.) must be older[?] now, Poplar Hall (Q: Poplar Hall, yes.) That’s it, well he was go’ner buy that, course, property was cheap in those days, money he got in the bank. But when the bank, bank failed, the people in the know drew their money out, because you know what it was in those type of days, the people in the know don’t have it all, you know, they went the right way to work. But anyway, they got the money out, but course my father lost all his. (Q: Really? Did he ….) He also lost a valuable hunter horse that he owned, worth four hundred pounds in those days. Died for some reason, he thinks, well, we thought, he thought at the time that somebody ill treated it when it was out in the field, course he said they couldn’t find, the vet couldn’t find nothing wrong with it.

Q:    So it was a hunter horse, so what would he keep that for, for people to … take out?

Mr P:    He used to, let it out to people, you know, for hunting and that (Q: I see, yes, oh, dear.) Poor old boy, that’s what, that didn’t help him at all.

Q:    He kept on with that trade till the end did he?

Mr P:    He packed up this job mastering and then took on this piece of ground up the Hatfield Road and done, sort of, small holding like for vegetables and mostly vegetables and stuff like that – nothing big, you know, like corn or anything like that. Used to grow seeds for seed growers and that.

Q:    So that was when you moved out of the Spread Eagle?

Mr P:    That’s when we lived up this other house, here [116 Newland Street]. Course, he died there, well, died in hospital, but that’s where he was, we were, when he died, then after a year or two we moved down to this place [147 Newland Street]. That belonged to the man, this was [???] didn’t belong to anybody that, derelict place, pretty derelict, that belonged to Mr Ellis, well then, he bought that and bought this and after we went out it was all pulled down. Because all there is now is sheets of corrugated iron. (Q: Yes, they’ve still not built on it, have they?) No, never done nothing to it. You see, that property along there, that butcher’s shop it’s still there, the little general shop, the little grocer’s that’s not there but the butcher’s shop’s still there, they sell all sundries and stuff in there now [143 Newland Street], but, where all those houses there, that’s shops and that, but if they do build on it, that has to come down but they gotta go back, too close to the road. (Q: I’m with you, yes.) Not allowed to build on the same spot, they must go back.

Q:    Did you ever go on any of these trips with your dad? When somebody hired the carts and things off your father, presumably did he have people working for him to take, did he have lots of people working for him to take them out?

Mr P:    Oh, yes, he had men to drive his horse, but he was very conscious of cruelty to animals, you know, he caught a man thrashing one of his horses one day with a whip and he give him the sack, he I don’t do that, and he said you’re not going to do it. Oh, yes, he had what we called the stables, that was all the out buildings at the back of the White Hart. (Q: Did he really?) In the yard there used to be [???] stables and one thing and another, coach house and then he also had some stables in the Spread Eagle yard, and we lived there, he had some in there and some in the others.

Q:    It was quite a big business, I wonder how it – was he a Witham person?

Mr P:    He wasn’t actually born in Witham, born out of Witham. Course there used to be another job master in Witham then and if they had a big wedding or big do they used to sort of work in together, you know.

Q:    I was wondering how – he must have done well to build up such a big business.

Mr P:    Well, he, money, wasn’t much money about, before he took on this, he was a coachman for a big family somewhere in the area, I don’t know, I can’t remember all about that, but, my mother came from Braxted. (Q: I see.) Her father was a butcher.

Q:    What was their name before she was married then?

Mr P:    Cottee. (Q: Oh, I’ve heard that name, yes.) And he used to drink all his money away. (Q: What, her father?) All the old tradesmen used to in those days, used to drink like a fish, my mother’s father, but my old dad he never drunk a lot, for some reason he wasn’t a drinking man.

Q:    Were there some parts of Witham those days regarded as poorer off than other parts?

Mr P:    Oh, well, you got these where there’s mostly cottages, little cottages up yards, where the poorer people lived. We had moneyed people in Witham, you know, that odd house in Collingwood Road or, one or two big houses in the high street and up Newland Street further up, you know. Dr Payne who lived in what, High House as they called it what’s a restaurant now Hamilton’s [part of 5 Newland Street], then a Dr Combe that lived in the Midland bank [57 Newland Street] and I’m trying to think of the name of that – it’s got a name, but I can’t remember what that was. What is Barclay’s bank used to be, my Sunday school teacher used to live there, that’s got a name too, but it’s a job to think of all these things [59 Newland Street].

Q:    That was the Church was it, not the …(Mr P: Church Sunday school, yes.) Church Sunday school, yes. Did you have to go to Church a lot?

Mr P:     I used to have to go Sunday and Sunday afternoon, what they called Catechism or the afternoon perhaps up to Church House [Collingwood Road] when we was children, you know, go to Church House Sunday afternoon, Sunday morning the church. Course, every morning you had to go to school they had the religious service and singing in the morning always for about quarter of an hour. School was strict in those days. (Q: Was it?) You had a mind[?] and one thing and another.

Q:    What happened if – were you well behaved at school?

Mr P:    We had to be. (Q: You had to be, did you?) Don’t, you got the cane. [Laugh] Our old schoolmaster was very very strict, he was, Cranfield his name was [Charles Cranfield; Church School, Guithavon Street]. (Q: Oh, I’ve heard of him, yes.) You heard of him? (Q: Yes, lots of people speak about him.) He used to live in the house adjoined the school, and he used to like his whisky. (Q: Did he?) Always knew when he’d been out and whisky ‘cause he’d come back with his face all red. [Laugh]

Q:    Where did he used to go to drink?

Mr P:    In the house, he never seemed to go out. (Q: Oh, in the house, yes, I see.) We never see him go in a pub or anything.

Q:    Did a lot of people drink in the house rather …? Actually, I’ll have to run now, won’t I?

______________________________________________

Tape 026. Miss May King, sides 1 and 2

Tape 26

Miss King was born in 1898, and was interviewed on 6 December 1977, when she lived at 3 Rex Mott Court, Witham.

She also appears, with others in her family, on tapes 37, 40 and 41

For more information about her, see notes on the “King family and Cecil Ager”  in the People category.

The original recording of this interview is held at the Essex Sound and Video Archive. To listen to the recording, please contact them at ero.enquiry@essex.gov.uk or 033301 32500.

[???] shows words that are not clear enough to interpret and so have had to be omitted.
[?] after a word shows that its interpretation is not certain.
Later explanatory additions by JG or the transcriber are in square brackets [e.g. explaining locations etc.]

__________________________________________________

Side 1

Miss K:    I know your husband. (Q: Really, how do you know him?) We voted for him. (Q: That’s good.) He put up for the Council. He got in that year (Q: Yes that’s right.) but he never got in last time did he ? (Q: Not this year, no.) He’s a very good fellow, oh yes, very good. And I think you want to vote for the one that do the things. Because he’s really for Witham people, I think he is He’s pretty good.

Q:     How long have you been a Witham person? You said you hadn’t ….

Miss K:    I was born at Beccles that’s about eight miles out of Lowestoft and twelve miles from Great Yarmouth and that was just a market town. We were all born there and then you see my father was an electric linesman and he got moved up here for more money. That’s very poor pay down that way so if he got near London more he got more money, see ? So of course we moved up here and we lived in that house over there for nearly sixty years [Mortimer Cottage, Guithavon Valley].

Q:    Really. So how old were you when you moved?

Miss K:    I was seventeen I think when they come up here. My sister, younger sister was nine and she was born on Christmas Day. We come in the November and she was born on the Christmas Day and she’ll be 71 this Christmas Day. And I’ll be 80 in June. But I can’t realise it really. You can’t not when you are getting old. I shall be 80 in June. We lived, a family of six of us, there, Mother and Father lived there, they both died there. Mother died in Broomfield but Dad died there and my brother died there and we were a family of six. Of course Dad and Mother rented the place but then we had got to get out because they wanted it and my brother-in-law said ‘Oh no, I’ll buy you the place and you can still live there’. Which he did and I lived with them you see and then the Council came one day and said ‘We should like a piece of your land’. So they thought and talked it over and one night my sister said to them ’Well if you’re going to sell your land it ain’t no good having a house with a little garden’. See, so she said if you are going to sell the land we’ll sell the house. So they both agreed to sell the house and we seed the Council and he said to me of course you’ll be able to live with them if you go over Rex Mott Court. He said that’s where we think you’ll go and we were priority of course because we’d sold the land. And Mr Chapman was on the Housing then and he come and saw me one day and he said ‘I think I can get you a one person flat’. [???] So I said ‘OK’ and I said ‘Well I hope you get it as near to my sister and brother in law as you can’ and he got me right next door. Ain’t that lovely? And I mean I’m on a lovely floor where I can look out and see and we often look over there at the memories of what we had there. ‘Cause we used to have a lot of our relations come and stay up there ‘cause they liked it so much.

Q:    No, you said your Father rented.

Miss K:    He rented. Well when he first come up here you see he knew that we’d got to find a place to live and we was lucky to get that. When we first went in that was nine shillings a week but afterwards that kept going up and up till it got to nearly thirty shillings a week. That’s how that … (Q: He bought it later, did he?) My brother in law bought it later. And that’s a six bedroom house and there are only two people live in that now. He works at Braintree Council, he’s a foreman on the maintenance.

Q:     Your Dad worked at Witham when he came did he?

Miss K:    Yes, he had little workshop on the side of the station because you see he was important really. Used to do all the telephones, telegraph wires and all that. He was very, yes, he was important really.

Q:      Did he have to work long hours ?

Miss K:    Well they left off half past five at night. He could get called out after that if there was any technical fault or anything like that. I can always remember him saying to my younger sister when she was a little tiny girl, she went to school in Guithavon Street. That was pulled down to make the Car Park – can you remember that ? (Q: just about that). Well both my sisters went there. I was older, I’d left you see, left school and they both went there. And I remember her saying to him one day ‘Daddy I should like to talk to you on the telephone’. So he said ‘When you come out of school you run up to my shop (he called his workshop) and I’ll call from the station in the booking office and you can pick the phone up and talk to me over there.’ Which she did. Oh she was thrilled ‘cause she heard his voice over the, she was only nine, she picked that up. She had never used one before you see. Then I thought I was going out to work. Dad always thought he’d got to keep me you see but one day somebody said ‘There’s a glove factory here. Did you know, May, where you can have a sitting down job?’ And I said ‘No I didn’t.’. So they said ‘Well we’ll tell you where it is’. I went up and got a job and I worked there 42 years. And they were all right but of course they went bankrupt in the end you see, and he was a Liberal Agent when he first came there and he opened that glove factory but that was well-known, a well-known place.

Q:      So how old were you when you went there ?

Miss K:    About seventeen.

Q:      Quite soon after you came ?

Miss K:    Yes, because, I tell you what I said Mrs Gyford, I said to my Dad. ‘I’d like to go out to work’. He said ‘Whatever for?’ So I said ‘A shilling of your own is better than yours, isn’t it’. [laughter] So he said ‘Well you please yourself’.

Q:      So did you get yourself …

Miss K:    I only got about three and six a week. And we had to buy our own scissors when we started and when I brought it home Mum said to me ‘You’d better keep that for yourself.’ So I kept it for myself. Of course as I gradually got on I got on piece work, what they call piece work,  and I earned what I done, got paid for what I done you see and in the end I got what I thought was a lot of money those days, I earned over five pound a week doing these gloves and then I slowed down a bit ‘cause I couldn’t do the work quite so fast and they put me on the time work job. So they paid we so much a week.

Q:      Did you do different sorts of job. What did you do when you first went there ?

Miss K:    When I first went there I was learned to make the gloves with the finger and then in the end I went on a buttonhole machine. They learnt me that with the buttonholes all down there and I also worked the buttoning machine. Where they put the buttons on and used to get so much a dozen for doing that.

Q:      So when you say make the gloves, that was …?

Miss K:    Well, when you’re making the gloves you have a forewoman over you and of course if she didn’t like it you see, you have to do them all over again. Because that’s very particular work and they were nylon and that silk and we done suede. We done leather palms and astrakhan backs. We done a lot of lovely gloves up there but in the end they went bankrupt you see so.

Q:     Do you remember any of the other people who worked there? What sort of people were they? Was it all women ?

Miss K:    No, the men used to have big presses to cut the gloves out for the women to make. That was the men what cut the gloves out, ‘cos my brother was one of them, he worked up there, he did.

Q:      You say there was a forewoman was there ?

Miss K:    Yes, there was a forewoman, manageress over us and she come down one day ‘cause she knew I’d got into this flat and she said ‘I’ve come down to see you May and look over the flat’. So I said ‘You’re quite welcome’. So then she said to me ‘Would you like to come up and have a day with me.’ and I had a day up at Nicholas Road. Sach I think here name is.

Q:     What about when you first started – who would be the forewoman then ?

Miss K:    Well she was a Londoner the forewoman then and they also turned their hand to making blouses when they got short of gloves. And they had a forewoman over them. They had these women all over you to see that you do the work right of course.

Q:    Did they watch you all the time or would they check when …

Miss K:    Oh they didn’t watch you all the time. They used to come round now and again to see if you had done what they told you to do you see. That was very interesting you see. Then my Dad said to me one day ‘You ain’t going to stop up there are you ?’ So I said ‘Whatever made you think that?’ He said ‘Well I thought you came home a bit miserable the other night.’ I did because I got wrong with how I’d done something and I thought to myself ‘Oh, I shan’t stop up there’ I don’t think. But in the end you see I was up there all them years. I mastered it and of course there you are. I really liked the work. I liked machining. I had a machine and I often wish I’d got one now ‘cause I can’t do it with my hands and I have done crochet work, knitting and all that to pass my time away. You do don’t you ?

Q:     So what did you used to do in your spare time when you were first started ? Did you have any spare time ? Did you have any spare time, when you first started work?

Miss K:    No, I was one of them that couldn’t get about much so of course I didn’t go far. No, my sisters and my brother they used to go out and about but I had a girl friend and she’d say to me ‘Shall we go up Chelmsford for the pictures?’ And I said ‘I don’t reckon I can get up’ She said ‘Oh I’ll help you.’ So when I was younger I went you see. And she used to come and come home with me and I had a girl friend and I also had a boyfriend. He was nice but he went to the War and he got killed. So I didn’t have him for long. That was when I got older about in my twenties then. He used to come and have tea with us. Mum and Dad rather liked him and he was, ‘course I weren’t like so bad as I am now. I worked up there all them years but I never had a stick until about the second year before I left to go to work . Cause there used to be an old gentleman used to stop me. He said ‘You really ought to have a stick you know to get along with’. So in the end I stopped and had my meal, sandwiches, up there then Mother cooked me a hot meal at night. So I was up there practically all day and that’s what she done, cooked me a meal at night.

Q:     Did the other people working there go home for their meals ?

Miss K:    Oh they went home and then there was another cripple, two more crippled girls worked there. They used to stop with me. There was one, her mother fell downstairs when she was going to have her and that deformed her you see, but the other girl had paralysis in her legs. All iron right up to here she did, the other girl. But they worked the machines and they done nice work. And Mr Pinkham, one of the sons, chewed[?] the girls up. Because he said to them one day ‘Now there’s Miss King’ he said ‘She get here on time and she’s a cripple’ because we used to clock in. Used to have a clocking machine, clock in and out. ‘She gets here on time and yet you keep losing two or three minutes.’ He said ‘Take your time off of her?’. See. That’s what he told them when we used to get speeches and tell them what they’d done and what the profits and that all were. Oh yes. ‘Cause one of the sons went out to America. He got a lot of orders. But what crippled them was Japan. Japan used to send gloves in so cheap, so cheap to what ours was you see that we couldn’t get the orders you see. Very interesting though.

Q:     Did he used to get everybody together to tell them ? How often was that ?

Miss K:    Oh yes and Christmas time we used to have a big Christmas tree in the factory in the space and he used to put a little present on for every one of us and he used to dress up as Grandfather Christmas and he used to call out the names and pick them off the tree and that was very nice that were. That’s was the last day before the Christmas holiday you see. They used to be nice up there. I used to enjoy that. But I dare say they don’t do nothing like that now do they ?

Q:     Did they have anything else that the people did together at the factory, sort of social things ?

Miss K:    Oh yes, they had whist drives at night. They used to have that about once a month. I used to go to them. And they had them in a big sort of hut place what run alongside of the factory. Used to have them. Whist drives and that. That was rather nice.

Q:     He was quite strict though as well was he, Mr Pinkham ?

Miss K:    Oh very strict. You’ve got to be there on your time. He said ‘You’re all anxious to leave off but you ain’t anxious to get here’. See. He used to tell them that. Well they were, as soon as the bell, they used to have a bell go, a buzzer, they were out but they never come in like that, see.

Q:     Did anyone ever actually get the sack or anything from there ?

Miss K:    Oh they sacked no end of girls. If they didn’t do the work properly. Oh yes. Because he said to me one day, he said, ‘I don’t think we get many girls.’, he said, ‘I wonder why ?’ So I said ‘That’s the poor wages Mr Pinkham’. So he said ‘Do you think so?’ I said ‘Yes I do’. I said ‘You don’t pay them enough’. See. Because they used to say that he’d have every pound of flesh. He was one like that. Very strict with the girls but in the end we got too many youngsters there. They used to go to dances and they used to do their hair up in these rollers and put a scarf over their head. Well he was very nice in that way, didn’t used to say anything. Used to let them machine like that with that on. So I mean he was all right to them. There were several pairs, the fellows got on with the girls, got married from there. You see.

Q:     Did they ever used to complain about the pay ?

Miss K:    Yes, oh yes.

Q:     What happened then ?

Miss K:    Well, they said they were going to come out on strike and all that but they never did. They never come out on strike.

Q:     When was that, when you first started ?

Miss K:    Yes, when we got them low wages. You see we used to have to pay for all the needles we broke. All what we broke. They called it a penny then. Used to have to pay a penny per needle. Oh, they wouldn’t give you nothing. Even your pair of scissors, you had to pay for that. Yes.

Q:      So who were the ones that said they were going to come out on strike, was that most people or just some of them ?

Miss K:    There was nearly all of them but in the end that never come to nothing you see. (Q: you wouldn’t?) I wouldn’t no. I wouldn’t. Wouldn’t do that.

Q:     So I suppose you were there so long you’d be one of the senior ones?

Miss K:    Well, yes, well do you know one of the sons said that, ‘Of course the older girls carry the younger ones on their shoulders.’, he said. Which we did. They didn’t do, wouldn’t like we done. They didn’t used to care you know.

Q:     When they got the sack was there anywhere else much they could go to work ?

Miss K:    No, only shops. There weren’t no factories only that one you see. But in the end I think Crittall’s opened a place where they made venetian blinds and some of the girls went there. See. But there wasn’t nowhere only that and shops you see. This was a little market town. Now look at it. Grown tremendous hasn’t it ? You know where the Labour Club is ? That’s where they used to have the all cows and sheep and all the market, you know, used to go and buy, eggs and chickens, and all that sort of thing there. Then you see that got so they done away with that and it got sold and the Labour Club bought it. They had a nice place built there [Collingwood Road]. I’ve been in there. I’ve been in several times. Oh I’ve played whist in there. Yes, I have. And I’ve seen a concert in there too. Because they’ve got a nice stage, isn’t there. Oh yes I’ve been up there.

Q:     Was there an ordinary market in those days or just the cattle. Was there a market where you could go and get vegetables and that sort of thing ?

Miss K:    No, only recently. That never used to be there.

Q:     I suppose you were too busy at work to do much shopping ? (Miss K: Used to have to go to the shops in the town.) What did your mother do ?

Miss K:    My mother was a Co-operator and she used to get nearly all her stuff down there. ‘Cause that was only a little place then, but of course that’s extended a lot. You see. Oh she was a strict Co-operator. Mother. Well she was a Labour woman you see. She was. So was Dad. Can you remember Mr Crittall getting in ? V G Crittall. (Q: People have told me about it.) Well, my father worked with him and the agent. They worked hard to get him in. Yes. I can remember them pulling them in his car with ropes. Oh that was ever such a do here that was. ‘Cause you see he owned that big place, that factory you see. That window place.

Q:     Did your father spend a lot of time on politics then or was it just at election time ?

Miss K:    No, my dad used to go round with a lot of leaflets and that, dad did. Dad and Mum was very big Labour people. I expect you are, aren’t you (Q: Oh yes.) Thought you was. We were. Well all my Dad’s people were Conservative. Like his Father and Mother and his sisters and that. Then they turned Liberal and my Mother’s people were always Liberal. Well then they come into the, they weren’t thought of, Labour then. Then that came Labour and of course they turned Labour ‘cause they were all for working people, weren’t they.

Side 2

Q:     He [John Gyford] seems to be kept pretty busy with meetings and that sort of thing you know. Did your father have that as well ?

Miss K:    My dad used to go a place called Medina Villa [80-84 Newland Street] That was in the town. That was the Labour head office and then that turned into – were you here when that was a dentist? (Q: I don’t think so.) That was De Trense, he was French[?] Well that’s where I had my false teeth off of him. He was a good dentist but he had that up top, that was a two, three, big house, and the Labour offices were down below. He only had it on the top floor.

Q:      Was there anybody working at the Labour office all the time or was it only …?

Miss K:    Yes, I think there was. Young, I think Miss Cottee her name was. She was typing and all that. Oh yes. She’s dead now and her husband’s he’s still alive though, Mr Wade. She was a Cottee but she married Mr Wade and he lost her and now he’s married again you see. That’s how they do don’t they. But this was a very blue place, very blue. But we didn’t care about that, my dad he was red hot really from what he told. That’s what I said to him. ‘You’re red hot’. [Laughter] He said ‘Well we stick up for them that stick up for the working class’. He said ‘Them others don’t they stick up for the ones what they thinks got a little bit of money’. So one woman, before I left the factory she said to me, there was going to be an election on, so she said ‘Don’t you go and give that to them Labour people’, she said. ‘You put down with that’, who was that, ‘Ruggles Brise?’ She said ‘You put it in with him, he’ll get you right’. But of course, I never.

Q:     Would there be elections for the Council as well. (Miss K: Yes, yes.) That would keep him busy.

Miss K:    Oh yes, there used to be in wards, didn’t they, certain wards. I wonder whose in my ward now, I’ve got to think. It’s years ago now. I don’t know who was in the last ward, I forget. Only I have a postal vote, see.

Q:     Did your father ever think of standing for the Council or anything ?

Miss K:    No, no. He wouldn’t do that. He was too busy on the railway. When he retired he sorted of rested like. He was very fond of his garden when he retired. So he used to be out in his garden a lot.

Q:     What was his first name ?

Miss K:    George, George King.

Q:     So if ever I read about him I’ll know who it is then.

Miss K:    George William and my brother was William George. Mum reversed their names.

Q:     Can you remember your mother voting in elections or anything.

Miss K:    Mum was very thick with the agent’s wife, she was. Very thick with her. (Q: That was Mrs …?) Burrows, wasn’t the name then ? Years ago you know. Burrows. He was a coal merchant, I don’t expect you remember that. (Q: No, but I’ve heard the name from somewhere.)  Yes. Coal merchant. And recently I had Mr Burrows’ brother’s wife come and see me and her name was Jarrett and her husband was sort of under manager at Crittall’s. And he died and now she’s give up that big house up up London Road and come and had one of these, she’s got her name down for one any road.

[Chat about Rex Mott Court and old people’s flats, not noted]

Miss K:    My brother had a Council bungalow in Laurence Avenue, he did. There’s a bus stop, they live on that end one, they did.

Q:    So, were you the oldest or the middle or what ?

Miss K:    I’m the oldest of the family. I’m coming 80 in June, my brother died when he was 73. He’s been dead four years. He would have been 77. My other sister is 73 and this one 71 Christmas Day. So we are all getting on you see. (Q: So you all stayed quite near.) And all my mother’s people are dead bar one Aunt, one sister and she’s 87 in April, not 87, 97 in April. Mother died when she was 86. Dad died when he was 77.

Q:     Where does your aunt live ?

Miss K:    Ipswich. We’re all Suffolk people. (Q: You all come from that way.) We’re all Suffolk people.

Q:     So what was your mother’s name before she was married ?

Miss K:    Hudson, Hudson, she’s related to the Hudson fruit people, mum. Her father, her father’s people kept the big brush factory and jute[?] factory in Coventry I think. So they were pretty well, you know.

Q:     You said your father was Labour because he said they were for the working class. Would he reckon he was working class himself or ..?

Miss K:    Yes, he did in the end.

Q:    He thought he was working class.

Q:     What about your mother was she …?

Miss K:    Oh mother, she was no different, she was Liberal you see till Labour come and then of course she turned over Labour. When her mother had any children she used to name them after Liberal MP’s. [Laughter] (Q: That was her mother?) Her mother did.

Q:     What was your mother called then ?

Miss K:    My mother’s name was Georgina. (Q: Who was that after?) I don’t know. I think that her mother was in service with a [???] who had a daughter that name.

Q:     You say Pinkham was a Liberal ?

Miss K:    Yes, he was a Liberal Agent. Of course he turned Conservative, oh yes, when he got up a bit. He thought he was it you see. I always think they think they are it, Conservatives. I don’t know why but I always think they think they’re above you. And always right i’n’t they ? in what they say and do. But they’re not, far from it. Like that woman they’ve got to have. I’d like to send her a spoon ‘cos she stir up everything don’t she.

Q:     That was when Mr Pinkham got on with the factory you reckon?

Miss K:    He was …, that was how he got the factory because he had just a little money, you see. He was a Devonshire man. He come from Barnstable, Devon he did.

Q:     Did you get on with him all right ?

Miss K:    I got on with him all right, and the old lady. ‘Cause they used to have little garden parties, well they invited the older girls you see. Like a strawberry tea and all that. They were very good to the older girls, that stuck to them.

Q:     How many girls would there be in that sort of group do you think?

Miss K:    Well, I should say there’d be about twenty or over. (Q: That’s the older ones?) Yes, then they kept bringing these 14 years old and 15 and 16 then.

Q:     Did you have to supervise the youngsters ?

Miss K:    Yes, we used to tell them when they were doing wrong. (Q: So did you have a special name, like a supervisor or something?). They did have a supervisor over them (Q: But you weren’t a supervisor?) Oh no I wouldn’t be it. (Q: Did they ask you?) Well they asked me to look after them. I said ‘No, I can’t do that’, that’d be too worrying to me, I couldn’t do it. I told them so. I said ‘No, I don’t mind doing me work what I’m doing but I don’t want be over the other girls’. So that’s how we, I was up there all them years. Oh he thought a good bit of me you know in his way. I got on all right with him because they got a greenhouse at their big house they had in Collingwood Road and they had peaches and big pears and all that and he’d often bring me a peach or a pear. And of course, if the other girls saw it they used to say ‘You’re well in’. Jealousy that was weren’t it? (Q: Mmm.) But I couldn’t help that, if he done it.

Q:     What about the younger ones ?

Miss K:    No, he weren’t very keen on them. The younger ones were cheeky you know. Used to sort of… Now if he said anything stern at me I wouldn’t answer but they turned round and said something to him. Well they don’t like that do they ? (Q: So what happened to the ones that were cheeky? What happened to them.) Well he just let that pass by he thought that if he said too much to ‘em they might leave and then he’d be left you see.

Q:     Would that have bothered him do you think? Did he find it easy to get people to work there ?

Miss K:    No, he didn’t. They used to run the place down. Oh no he couldn’t. They’d rather go somewhere else. Now my young sister what lived next door [Christina Ager?], she started up there, she couldn’t bear it. So of course she went in the shop. She went to the International and worked there. She couldn’t bear it, machining. ‘Oh’, she said, ‘How ever you’ve stuck that I don’t know’. She used to say. But there you are.

Q:     If you look at when you started and when you finished up there was the place very different ?

Miss K:    Oooh, the difference ! (Q: How was it different?) Well, the atmosphere was a lot different you know. You used to get in with your own girls but I didn’t used to get in with the young ones at all. I used to get in with the girls what I first went with and kept with them like.

Q:     Was the work different, when you finished up ?

Miss K:    Yes A lot different, it was a lot different. As I told you we made gloves for the Queen when she went abroad and we had an exhibition in the Public Hall when it was the Coronation and that. For George the fifth, that was, when they had their Coronation and the gloves were all on exhibition and they were lovely. They had to pay to go in there and they raised a good bit of money over that. Oh yes, I’ve enjoyed me young life you know but I worked till I was sixty, yes till I was sixty. Then you see I got a little pension and of course I didn’t get so much over there as I what I get here because you see I lived in with other people. When you live on your own that’s quite different.

Q:     I remember you saying that when you left the factory the girls gave you ..?

Miss K:    Yes, they gave me a watch. I’ve got the watch, I’ll show you. [Noises] A basket of fruit. I had all that. I only wear it high days and holidays. I’ve had that, let me see, I’m 80, I worked till I was 60, I’ve had it twenty years. And he slipped twenty pound in my hand. So that weren’t too bad was it. (Q: That was Pinkham? [???]) Well his father died and that was the son. And I got on better with him, Bert I always called him Mr Bert and I got on better with him than I did the father. The old man was a bit grumpy. But I got on a lot better with him and he’d say ‘I hear you’re going on holiday, I said yes I am, I’m thinking about it,’ so he come up and he slipped that in my hand. I never looked at it when he give it to me but when I got home I did, so I said ‘I come off a bit lucky going up to see him.’ Because Mr Chapman what was on the housing in the Council, he was on the Witham Window in the Braintree and Witham Times and he used to write it. Well he come and see me one night. I said to him, now don’t go and put that in the paper what I’m telling you, which he did. And the next day I had the van driver come down [???] and said ‘Mr Pinkham want to see you’. So I had to go up in the Board Room. So he said ‘Look at that’ he said ‘I never thought you thought anything like that about us’. I said ‘Well never [???] farewell or nothing, did you?’ Like that. I said ‘What you got there has nothing to do with our family whatever’. I said ‘Somebody else has had that put in [???] that ain’t nothing to do with any of us at all’. And he said, of course the manager said, what was it now, ‘How are you got to get home’. So Mr Bert, the boss, said ‘I’m taking her home in the car’. So he took me home then he come right in and I introduced him to Mum and Dad and Dad had a cigarette with him and everything went off all right. So we parted good friends.

Q:     But he was the one that was cross was he ?

Miss K:    Yes. He thought I had that put in the paper but I didn’t. I just spoke to Mr Chapman about it and I said to him don’t have it put in the paper. And that’s the very thing he went and, in the Witham Window it was called. He just put that in there. Course they got the paper and read it you see.

Q:    Who was the manager, that was somebody different was it ?

Miss K:    Manager was Mr Keeble. I don’t know if you know him (Q: I think I do.) Herbert Keeble. Reckon you do know him. He lives in the bungalow in Mill Lane don’t he. I think he do. You know where the tannery used to be, well in one of them. That’s where he lives. He was the manager. He’s about my age, there ain’t much difference between him and me.

Q:     Did you get on all right with him ?

Miss K:    No, oh I couldn’t bear the man, couldn’t bear him. Yet he went and told his sister in law, she live up here. I was in there one day and she was talking about Herbert, that’s his name, Herbert Keeble. So she was saying, May, he said that you were one of the best workers, one of the best buttonholers that they ever had. So you hear these things.

Q:     Did he have much to do with you when you were working ? What was his job as manager ?

Miss K:    No he was watching all the time. He was in an office high up so he could see all round you know, that sort of business, watching like you know. We didn’t care for him at all.

Q:     What happened if he didn’t like what you were doing ?

Miss K:    He used to come round and sort of tell you off, you know, if he didn’t like what you were doing and that.

Q:     Was he there a long time ?

Miss K:    Oh he was there a long while, years, years. Before me. As a young boy he went there. And then he gradually worked his way up you see.

Q:     He did quite well then ?

Miss K:    He done well for himself, oh yes. He had three children I think, yes, he did, a girl and two boys.

Q:     So the Pinkhams themselves weren’t at the factory all the time ?

Miss K:    Oh no, ‘cause they went out, they went abroad to get these orders you see. And they also had to go to London a lot, all that.

Q:     So did you see much of them, the Pinkhams ?

Miss K:    Well, no, not a lot but when they were about you knew it. No we didn’t see a lot of them but when they were about they were sort of, seemed inclined to tell you off, you know that sort of business.

Q:     But they didn’t find fault with you much ?

Miss K:    No, not a lot. I really hadn’t got nothing to grumble about, not really, because they were pretty good to me.

Q:     You said one of your sisters worked in a shop. Was she there a long time ?

Miss K:    Yes, the other sister she became manageress of the finishing department. They used to have to have to put the gloves on hot …

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